patentcad

https://www.coloradocyclist.com/commo...=42983&S=42983

Pros and cons of this gizmo? I may have asked this before so please indulge me.

I'm not too concerned about accuracy when it comes to watt output readings. That seems irrelevant to me, since you'd be more concerned with your RELATIVE power output (i.e., whether you're 20% higher or lower than some target range) for training purposes? Isn't that about right?

I'm clueless on this, so if that last assumption is wrong, please educate me.

And here's my take on the Garmin Edge (I have to give you weenies something go berserk about this morning):

• I know where I'm going on my bike

• I know where I've been

• All those bike data gizmos (altimeters, etc) seem to lose their relevance for me after a few months

• I need to keep it simple

That's why the IBike appeals to me. It appears to be simple. But does it work?

merlinextraligh

I'm not sure how simple it is. My understanding is that to use it correctly, you have weigh yourself before each ride, and you then have to do a coastdown with the clothes you are going to wear for that ride.

Even then, the power will vary based upon road surface, riding position, and position in a group.

At $400, plus another $89 for a cadence sensor, you're not that far short of a Powertap Pro.

They may turn out to work quite well, but I've yet to see one in use, (compared to powertaps which are becoming somewaht common.) My bet is that they're not not going to see widespread adoption by people using to run a power based training program.

El Diablo Rojo

In a word, no. However this is subject to what you are comparing it to. As a powermeter it is not nearly as accurate or as useful as a PowerTap, SRM or an ergomo. It's better than a HAC 4 and maybe in the slightly worse than a Polar S7xx series. I've spoken with 4 guys locally here that have used them and all of them have given up and moved to one of the 'three' actual powermeters.

DrPete 

NoRacer has used one with pretty good results, and mentioned that he'd figured out a way to use it on rollers too...

It seems very much like my Polar in the sense that it'll be a good gateway drug on the way to one of the big 3...

patentcad

'Gateway drug'?

Is there a 12-step program for this obsession DP?

I think we all need one.

DrPete 

DP's 12-step PW program... I like the sound of that.

I need a good touchy-feely book to make all the cash with, though. Something like "Touching Your Inner Power Weenie," with a pic of me in a sweater on the cover looking intelligent and caring.

merlinextraligh

you shouldn't bait Botto like that.

NoRacer

Check these:

https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/210303-ibike-pro.html

https://lists.topica.com/lists/iBikeProPowerMeter

EDIT to add: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=263747&page=4

I've been using it on my rollers, because rollers are linear in resistance (unless yours has a resistance unit.) To do this, you need to mess around with the calibration parameters so that they track your roller's power table.

Currently, in the cold weather, there is a problem with battery life. I've worked out a way to run 2 batteries in parallel without having to change anything about the mount or the unit. Others have modified the mount to allow for an external battery. You can read about all of this in Topica.

EDIT to add: The cold will also affect the wind pressure sensor. You MUST keep this zero'd (when there is no wind) as the device chills.

Chipseal roads offer a challenge to the iBike as the internal accelerometer is sensitive to the chatter caused by vibration from this kind of road. This will yield bad wattage readings. Apparently, this situation was worse than what it is now with the current firmware fix installed, but it still exists.

The iBike has the following sensors:

- speed sensor (determine bike speed)
- accelerometer (to determine rate of acceleration)
- tilt sensor (for determining grade of the road)
- wind pressure sensor (for wind speed)
- thermometer (for temperature)
- barometer (for elevation)

User supplied parameter:
- total weight (bike, rider, fluid replacement)
- date/time

There are 2 calibrations that must be done before using the device:

- Tilt (to calibrate the unit for minute tilt from installation)
- Coast down (to calculate the aero resistance and frictional resistance)

Software:

- It has it's own software to download rides into the PC, but it's very limited in it's functionality
- A trial version of CyclingPeaks is supplied. This software is, imho, the best for using with any power meter (or power estimator).

Other new powermeters trying to make it to market other than the Polar, SRM, PT, and ERGOMO:

- Quarq
- PowerReport
- MicroSport

DXchulo

If you're going to go cheap I'd go with Polar. There's no calibration and it's not affected by temperature. It's not without its problems, of course- mainly that it's difficult to set up. If you don't like it at least you'll have a nice HRM as a consolation prize.

I'd still go with PowerTap over everything else if I were to get anything, though. I wish the ergomo was less expensive.

merlinextraligh

Noracer,
I've read that's its not very accurate in a pack, which intuitively makes sense. What's been your experience?

Also, how does it deal with your position on the bike. Obviously 22mph an hour on the hoods is more wattage than 22mph in the drops with your elbows really bent. Does it show the same output in both circumstances?

I'm obviously skeptical. However, I'd love to have one though if it really worked well. The weight advantage, and freedom to run whatever wheel set would be a big advantage.

NoRacer

Ok. Now for my opinion:

I like the ease of being able to move it from bike to bike. You would only need another mount to do that.

The data seems to be consistent, but accuracy is debatable. There's independent reports from other not vested in iBike who have ridden the iBike with one of the established PMs and have reported good correlation, others have reported lesser correlation, but no one has reported that it simply doesn't yield a way to monitor the intensity and duration of effort on a bike.

The battery problem in the cold was a major source of frustration for me, as I had invested hours of riding (several long distance base rides) and came home with nothing to put into CyclingPeaks. Velocomp has yet to come up with their own fix for this; many of us "early adopters" have taken the matter into our own hands to find a workaround.

You DO NOT have to reset the weight and do a coast down calibration each time you ride if you are not making a major change in any of the parameters (i.e., if your weight is close to being the same or your kit is about the same aerodynamically, your tire pressure is the same, your brake is not rubbing, ) After messing around with the iBike's calibration parameters I have found that no one parameter on it's own will make a major difference in the output EXCEPT for tilt, wind pressure, and the drag parameters.

The unit's output does offer the reason why you need to expend the energy you are--in other words, it gives you a number and that number can be consistent if you don't keep messing with the calibration each and every ride. IMHO, it's a step above using an HRM, but it probably should be used with one all the same, if you are really wanting to monitor all of your physiological systems.

I will concede that a strain guage based PM will be more accurate and consistent, because there is less uncertainty in it's inputs. But, I only paid $400US and I'm able to "train" with something that shows me where my efforts is going and offers a way to channel those efforts to better use.

NoRacer

I haven't recorded a long ride in a pack yet, due to the battery issue. I hope to do so this Spring, but from what I've read on Topica, this isn't the problem that it was initially made out to be.

Changing between the hoods and the drops (or the tops) could affect the calculation, but I haven't seen anything that would indicate that using a different position, other than the one you did the coast down in, would affect the ride that you bring home to analyze. The immediate reading may be sketchy at the time, but overall it such a small percentage of the ride that it seems like it's well into the "noise" level. I'll find out more this Spring when I ride it with the bike club.

operator

Unfortunately you can do this just as easily with perceived effort or a HRM. All this "ibike" thing really is a small compact version of a web applet that'll let you calculate what you should've output given all these other variables, none of which is measured to any accuracy to yield good REAL TIME results.

I have no doubt that after a year or so this device will be debunked and labelled gimmick. And rightly so.

jbhowat

I don't know about you, but on my rides I find it hard to keep track of what the windspeed and road gradiant were like at each specific point on the ride. So, while I really don't think the IBike is that great, its better than coming home and using the web (which is probably how we get so many people on the racing forum with strong Cat1/2 wattages.)

NoRacer

Whatever. It's a tool. If I can see that it has helped me increase my fitness, because I'm stronger in club rides, then it doesn't matter that it's the physical instantiation of:

https://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

But one of the big problems, other than it is doing what you said it is, is that it's not being installed by professionals. You get your box with all the parts and it's left to the owner to install it no matter their mechanical aptitude. Some people just ehf it up and then they b*tch that the thing is all over the place. Some people don't want to know, they just want to throw their leg up over the bike and ride.

I've been to the Google Wattage forum. The established PMs have their problems and shortcomings as well. There is no such thing as a perfect powermeter.

rule

Well that wouldn't describe me. I don't have issues with bikes or technical gear. I understand and am comfortable working with them both. And yet here I am on my seconde iBike Pro unit and still can't get one that will work consistently enough to give me anything remotely close to usable training data. I get that from a couple of Powertap units, which also gives me the ability to evalutate the iBike's deficiencies. There are plenty.

The main issue that I notice is that the only way to keep anything like consistent readings is to do a full coast down calibration every ride. Otherwise, the units tend to drift, especially as the battery drains. This is an issue in itself as the units eat batteries, especially if you use them in the cold. The biggest issue in terms of reliability is the unit's tendency to produce psychotically incorrect power spikes. Even with all the firmware updates and recommendations for use this is still an issue. The result is that these spikes dramatically skew your power numbers and related training calculations, especially when you use CyclingPeaks. Just a couple of these spikes a ride can really mess up your overall power profile. One time your max power output may be 1200 watts, another time it could be 2200. There is no rhyme or reason to it. But there is sure no way to train with that kind of screwed up data effect. The unit still has issues over rough roads too, which goes a long way to hender the unit's inherent ability to translate rides into usuable and repeatable ride data. Take a look at the iBike forums and see what you think from some of the other users.

Save your money or you'll be sorry describes this unit to a word. But hey, it's your dough.

johnny99

What are you going to use the device for? I don't have one, but reviews I've read say that it is not accurate enough for hard core training. It wouldn't be so bad if it always read 20% high, but the device sometimes reads very high and sometimes very low. It is known to be very inaccurate when you are drafting, cornering, and other common training situations. For recreational training, it might be OK.

NoRacer

I already covered the problems with chipseal roads and batteries. The cold also affects the wind offset. This has to be zeroed before each ride and later as the unit's internal temperature changes.

If the chipseal road gives you spikes that you know are wrong, then smooth them out, manually, in CyclingPeaks or using Notepad for the .CSV file downloaded from the iBike software.

Crisi di Fame

I have had my Ibike for about a month now and have about 4 rides with it due to weather. I have not experienced any truely abnormal spikes to the likes of 1200+ watts. I have seen some 650 spikes at the base of hills when I stand up and really push it (I weigh 200 lbs and am pretty strong so for an instant I might be pushing that kind of wattage ) but nothing outrageous.

I love data. That's the reason I bought this unit. I was able to cut out one computer as I was using two plus a heart rate monitor. I could not afford the PT SL 2.4 that I wanted and didn't want the lower end unit. Ditto for the SRM. I bought the cadence mount so I could have the abiltiy to monitor cadence on the trainer and also have a separate non-cadence unit for my commuter bike. Very handy for me.

I love the way it measures gradient of the road. It's instant. I live in Charlottesville, VA on the eastern slope of the Blue Ridge and I have no flat roads to train on. So for me, having an accurate way to measure gradient was important. If you read the article Wattage per Kilogram by Richard Wharton

https://ibikesports.com/documents/pow...ining_book.pdf

you'll gain some insight as to how to train with the Ibike. I thought it was a very good read and a great way to measure your improvment through out the season. The fact that you can do it by yourself and not go to a lab or sit on a trainer was worth my money. My race team sponsor also sells them so I got a discount which didn't hurt.

For me, YMMV, the IBike is a great training tool that make my cycling experience more enjoyable. I can't tell you if it very accurate as I don't have a PT or SRM but I can tell you that I know when I'm working harding my watts increase and my pedal input to wattage ratio is very accurate as far as the LCD readout is concerned. I have ridden in temps around freezing and haven't noticed any real abonormalities but my usage time is limited so take that with a grain of salt. I was very careful when doing the Tilt and Coast down calibrations but only did the coast down twice for each bike. I am a set it and forget it type of guy but I like to get it right the first time.

In my opinion the Ibike is not a gimic. It gives me a very useful way to measure my performance when used with my HRM. I also get an altimeter (again, important for someone who rides in the mountains on a daily basis), an inclinometer (sp), cadence, temp and speed. For me, its a great package that I can use on two bikes for far less then a two bike PT or SRM set up.

I hope this has helped someone who is on the fence. Time will tell if Velocomp is a success financially and for now I will support them because I think they have a good product. Is it the best power meter out there? Don't know. For me it was, stealing the analogy from DrPete, a wonderful Gateway drug into training with power. I'm not making a living from racing my bike nor do I have the disposable income to spend thousands of dollars on an SRM or PT (the top of the line version that I would want) and get the extra wheelset that I would want.

If you are such a serious competitor that you have to have the most accurate data then pony up the cash for an SRM or PT. If accuracy is that important to you then buy something that you know will satisfy that need. But, those units also have to be calibrated too and are not perfect.

Regards,

Sean (I used to have an account here but I forgot my password and my old email account was torched. And I don't work for Velocomp/Ibike I just like the product and wanted to share)

curveship

NoRacer posted to the iBike list about this thread. I haven't written a review in a while, so I'll chip in my 2c.

I've been using an iBike since September, and I'll say this: it's far and away the best $400 upgrade I've made to my bike and training. I think it's the best $400 training tool out there hands down ... especially when you use a Performance 20% off coupon like I did and pay only $320 . Better than an HRM no question. After a month, I took my Polar off my bike -- the info from the iBike was always much more useful and accurate for tracking my training.

I assume you're already aware of the main pros: price being the big one, but also ease of installation and weight. There're also some promising discussions going on on the iBike list about using the device for aero testing, but that is still playing out. I'll add that the customer support from VeloComp, the maker, is top notch, best I've ever encountered. The guys believe in their product and really think it's going to win out on its merits. Also, they've been very responsive to customer feedback, releasing improved versions of the firmware about every month.

The main con, I'd say, is that you have to understand the device a little more than most and keep an eye on its calibration. Granted, this is good practice with any training device, but especially so with the iBike. You don't have to weigh yourself every ride and you don't have to (and shouldn't) do a coastdown every time either. You should give the tilt a quick check before every ride, and if you're storing the bike indoors, you should check the wind offset after it equilibrates with outside temperature. You should take some time getting a good coastdown test (smooth, fairly level road, low wind), and then once you have it, stick to it unless you change something substantial. Better yet, do several good coastdowns and average them.

If you take care with the calibration, then the unit works very well for the vast majority of situations. The side-by-side comparisons I've seen with other PMs show a very close correlation for 95% of a ride. The specific situations where the iBike *doesn't* do well are:

- high speeds on rough roads with rolling terrain. The vibrations overload the accelerometer's ability to read the slope of the road, so the unit goes into a fallback mode where it keeps using the last good slope reading. On rolling terrain, the slope can change before it gets another reading, and this can cause short but BIG errors in power, the spikes that rule mentioned. I get about one every two rides, about 1-3% of total ride time. If you have the cadence sensor, the situation is narrowed to " ... while pedaling," as the unit zeros watts when it knows you aren't pedaling. Like NoRacer, I flatten the peaks out in WKO+.

- drafting in a small group. The unit only samples air speed at the port, and in a small group where the draft is narrow, this may not be representative of air speed over the entire rider. In a big group, the draft is wider and the difference in air speed isn't as great. Based solely on feel, I'd say the power falls about 5-15% on the flats. Climbing in a small group isn't an issue, of course.

- temperatures under about 35. Battery life from the little cr2032 cells becomes too short to be useful, like 4 hours at 35 and only 1 hour at 20. It took me about an hour to rig up an external battery pack, though, and since then temperature hasn't been an issue. This is something the company needs to address, though. The obvious solution is a supplemental battery inside the mount, and they're also working on firmware improvements to lower current drain.

Overall I'm very happy with my purchase. I'm definitely never going back to training without power again. I could see having another PM in my future, mostly because I like adding a new toy or idea to my training every few months, to keep training interesting.

EDIT: One more thing I'll add. The main bonus of power training for me is that, as a 30+ yo cat3 dad who's also in graduate school and working to pay the bills, I really need to maximize my training time and cycling budget. I bought the iBike because I thought and still think it's the best product out there for MY needs. It may not be the best for everyone. I think we're fortunate right now that there are a lot of good power products out there at different pricepoints.

rule

Good posts in terms of the work-arounds but the Velo boys should have put a lot more effort into perfecting their product before its launch. Surely that's fair to those who don't want to work in their uncompensated on-the-road R&D department. For $400 bucks it damn well better work the way that it says it will, and without a lot of calibration, on the bike and off the bike guess work and data manipulation. That comes at even a higher price. You may think you have a pretty good idea of what your power readings should be but the real shame is that once you start down that road you really have no idea what your power profile could be. To me that's a huge trade-off for something as expensive as an iBike.

NoRacer

Well, for the price of a PT, ERGOMO, SRM, and even a Polar, they should all work, but the fact of the matter is that they all have their own problems.

Here's a short list from February of this year of topics found in the Google Wattage group:

Power Tap Intensity Factor Low...relative to others??
Ergomo elevation data
Different output from two Ergomo head units (same BB/bike)
SRM Zero Offset Questions
stochastic SRM data advice
PT Pro losing HR signal
SRM Calibration Revisited Again...
New Bike/New Ergomo + Old bike/Old Ergomo = Inconsistent Data
SRM PC-IV Distance Display?
Powertap SL 2.4 data dropping?
PT not Zero In Cold WEather ?/

canili

Other new powermeters trying to make it to market
- MicroSport[/QUOTE]

https://www.microsporttech.com/product.php

interesting...but still pretty pricey

DXchulo

What kind of software does that come with? How often does it record? I wish their site had a little more information.

curveship

I'll agree with you about the battery issue (the developer lives in Houston and never tested the unit in truly cold weather), but in general the product felt fairly polished from the start. The one they released was actually their second generation unit, and they delayed launch for almost a year.

When I first got my iBike, I worried about accuracy a lot -- I frequently compared its numbers to ones calculated on analyticcycling.com, I did power profile tests on a friend's PT-equipped bike and compared the numbers to the iBike ones, I scoured the net for head-to-head comparison files with other powermeters, etc. After a while, I was satisfied -- for the great bulk of riding time, it worked very well. For the few corner cases I mentioned above, it didn't, but they were rare enough and obvious enough that I could deal with them after the ride. Sure, it'd be nice if that last few percent of ride time were solved too, but I don't find it too much of a burden. I'm confident that I have a good grasp on my power profile.