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Tubeless tires anyone?

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Tubeless tires anyone?

Old 08-01-07, 06:43 AM
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JNorm
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Tubeless tires anyone?

So I was browsing the Shimano site, just checking out some components when I noticed they had an ad for tubeless tires. Has anyone actually purchased a set of these? Or know anyone who has? I'm just curious as to if they're really as 'groundbreaking' as they say they are.

Thanks
J
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Old 08-01-07, 07:34 AM
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Ummm...you go first. Tell us all how you like them.

From what I've read, there is only one set of rims currently offered that takes the tubeless tires - Dura Ace. I've read some test results that sounded pretty good, but I have no experience with them.
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Old 08-01-07, 07:43 AM
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An answer to a problem that didn't exist. More marketing from Shimano in an effort their "planned obsolescence" campaign.

They are heavier than regular clinchers, the tires are heavier and only available from one manufacturer (Hutchinson) and they are no more durable...

The marketing says they ride better (questionable) and there's less rolling resistance (questionable)...

Stick with what you have...
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Old 08-01-07, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by damocles1 View Post
An answer to a problem that didn't exist. More marketing from Shimano in an effort their "planned obsolescence" campaign.

They are heavier than regular clinchers, the tires are heavier and only available from one manufacturer (Hutchinson) and they are no more durable...

The marketing says they ride better (questionable) and there's less rolling resistance (questionable)...

Stick with what you have...
I had never heard anything about them aside from reading the ad. I figured they can't be all that special
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Old 08-01-07, 08:13 AM
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I have a friend who used a set at nevada city and burlingame crits(both rolling and fast corners) and he said to his suprise the ride was very good and similar to his tubulars but the weight sucked.
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Old 08-01-07, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by damocles1 View Post
An answer to a problem that didn't exist. More marketing from Shimano in an effort their "planned obsolescence" campaign.

They are heavier than regular clinchers, the tires are heavier and only available from one manufacturer (Hutchinson) and they are no more durable...

The marketing says they ride better (questionable) and there's less rolling resistance (questionable)...

Stick with what you have...

Wow I assume you think that way about any new technology in life? You are very skeptical and have no hard facts to back up your statements.

Let me say that this technology isn't bad at all. I DO OWN a set of 7801-SLs and I DO run the Hutchinson Fusion 2 road tubeless. Here is what you can expect from them from my 2 months experience so far.

1. The wheels weigh in at about 1520 grams - pretty much on par with other nice factory wheels.
2. The wheels are very nice, roll like crazy and are stiff enough for big "wattage" riders.
3. The tubeless tires ride VERY VERY nice. They corner better than any tire I have tried before. They also soak up a ton of the minor irritations a road can cause.
4.. The tires are very easy to mount and very easy to inflate.


Yes the tires do weigh about 300 grams but are not really much "heavier than clinchers with tubes". They are way more durable as far as tread wear from many big name clincher products I have used prior. Are they anymore puncture resistant? Well so far not for me. They are about the same as regular tube/tires so far. Maybe I have been unlucky but still remains to be seen.

They do ride way better than regular clinchers in my opinion its night and day. Marketing does claim a lot less rolling resistance but that remains to be seen. I feel they do have less rolling resistance but nowhere near as much as they claim.

Overall its a new technology that everybody seems to be so fearful of its amazing. Yes there is only one wheel/tire manufacturer but this will be changing in the very near future. This is the future of wheel/tire combo's. Its going to take quite some time to talk all the skeptics out of there normal routine.
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Old 08-01-07, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by USCswimming View Post
Wow I assume you think that way about any new technology in life? You are very skeptical and have no hard facts to back up your statements.

Let me say that this technology isn't bad at all. I DO OWN a set of 7801-SLs and I DO run the Hutchinson Fusion 2 road tubeless. Here is what you can expect from them from my 2 months experience so far.

1. The wheels weigh in at about 1520 grams - pretty much on par with other nice factory wheels.
2. The wheels are very nice, roll like crazy and are stiff enough for big "wattage" riders.
3. The tubeless tires ride VERY VERY nice. They corner better than any tire I have tried before. They also soak up a ton of the minor irritations a road can cause.
4.. The tires are very easy to mount and very easy to inflate.


Yes the tires do weigh about 300 grams but are not really much "heavier than clinchers with tubes". They are way more durable as far as tread wear from many big name clincher products I have used prior. Are they anymore puncture resistant? Well so far not for me. They are about the same as regular tube/tires so far. Maybe I have been unlucky but still remains to be seen.

They do ride way better than regular clinchers in my opinion its night and day. Marketing does claim a lot less rolling resistance but that remains to be seen. I feel they do have less rolling resistance but nowhere near as much as they claim.

Overall its a new technology that everybody seems to be so fearful of its amazing. Yes there is only one wheel/tire manufacturer but this will be changing in the very near future. This is the future of wheel/tire combo's. Its going to take quite some time to talk all the skeptics out of there normal routine.

You aren't reducing any weight. The wheels are heavier than a normal clincher and the tires are heavier due to the bead that must be placed in them to keep the tire from blowing of the rim. They are only 127 tpi and weigh a claimed 290 grams. Vittoria Open Corsa CX tires are 290 tpi and the new Conti GP4000S is 330 tpi.
A Conti GP4000S weighs 205 grams and a latex tube weighs @ 50 grams. 255 is still lighter than 290. And that's rotational weight!

Lets' examine:
White Industries H1 hubs (32 hole)
Sapim CX-Ray spokes
IRD Cadence hoops
Alloy Nips ============== 1400 grams (observed)
2x Conti GP4000S w/latex tubes=== 510 grams (observed)
Total== 1910 grams

Dura-Ace 7801-SL 1560 grams (claimed)
2x Hutchinson Fusion2 tires 580 grams (claimed)
valve stems 20 grams (claimed)
Total== 2160 grams

250 grams difference = more than half a pound !!!

The rolling resistance theory is still up in the air...likely in your head...

I'm not a luddite by any stretch, but you simply cannot tell me that a heavy, 127tpi tire rides better than a 330tpi tire with a latex tube. The ride quality you're feeling is due to the fact that you have 90 pounds of pressure in the tire versus 120-130 with a regular clincher and the fact that the wheels just aren't all that stiff (yes, I've ridden them!). And if you cut the tire on a ride, you're just as screwed. Flats will require either using that stupid goo sealant or, you guessed it, putting a tube in it.
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Old 08-01-07, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by damocles1 View Post
The ride quality you're feeling is due to the fact that you have 90 pounds of pressure in the tire versus 120-130 with a regular clincher and the fact that the wheels just aren't all that stiff (yes, I've ridden them!). And if you cut the tire on a ride, you're just as screwed. Flats will require either using that stupid goo sealant or, you guessed it, putting a tube in it.
That 1st sentence is a very nice assumption. No I ride the front at 110 and the rear at 120 and they are still a way better ride than what I have used in the past. I have ridden Michelin Krylion Carbons, Michelin Pro Race 2, Vittoria Open Corsa CX & KX.

I never said the wheels are SUPER stiff but they are definitely stiff enough. I just replaced my Mavic Ksyrium ES's with the Dura-ace. Yes the ES's are super stiff but they are way overrated as a wheel.

Plus how many people on this board are riding a 1400 gram wheel? I doubt that many. Most racers/riders I know are riding something about 1500 grams give or take a few grams.

For $680 delivered to my door plus $90 for tires, this is a great wheel/tire combo. I assume your just going to continue to bash and have fun at it. Everybody has an opinion.
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Old 08-01-07, 10:56 AM
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Where did I bash the wheels? I merely pointed out simple facts and you became defensive. I hope you enjoy your wheels and that they work well for you. I just won't be buying a set.

And a lot more people on this board are riding 1400 gram wheels than you think...
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Old 08-01-07, 11:01 AM
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Bicycle magazine did a small piece on them this month - it is a rim review actually, but it breaks the 3 options down. They seem to really like them and think they have a future. They do not like how few of them are out at this time, which I understand.

Some advantages are - easy to change, can be ridden with a tube if needed, more resistant to pinch flats so you can ride lower pressure which has upsides. Kind of a real half way point between the two current options.
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Old 08-01-07, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by damocles1 View Post
An answer to a problem that didn't exist.

You beat me to it. That's exactly the approriate expression.

For MTB it makes some sense because it allows lower tire pressures without pinch flatting. For the road, the current version at least offers no real advantage.
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Old 08-01-07, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by indygreg View Post
Bicycle magazine did a small piece on them this month - it is a rim review actually, but it breaks the 3 options down. They seem to really like them and think they have a future. They do not like how few of them are out at this time, which I understand.

Some advantages are - easy to change, can be ridden with a tube if needed, more resistant to pinch flats so you can ride lower pressure which has upsides. Kind of a real half way point between the two current options.

1) Bicycling has never met a product (at least one made by an advertiser in the Mag) they didn't like.

2) If you want to ride a tire pressure that's so low your getting any significant number of pinch flats, you need a wider tire.

3) " can be ridden with a tube" is not an advantage. All clincher tires can be ridden with a tube.

4) "easy to chage". They can't be any easier to change than a standard clincher. And the need to insure an air tight seal at the rim will likely make them harder to install and change than a standard clincher.
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Old 08-01-07, 12:33 PM
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It's a really nice wheelset, and a good option for heavier riders. I'm 6'3" and 210 pounds and it was the best option I could find that would take my weight in that price range ($700 street price).

Getting the tires to seal to the rim took a bit of figuring out, but once you have the technique down it is easy.
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Old 08-01-07, 01:41 PM
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So you're saying a $700+ wheelset is the only option for someone who weighs 210? If that's the reasoning behind your purchase, you drank the Kool-Aid...

A well built set of 32 hole wheels, built 3x with good spokes and brass nipples would have been cheaper, will last longer and would have been easier to service and maintain.
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Old 08-01-07, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by damocles1 View Post
So you're saying a $700+ wheelset is the only option for someone who weighs 210? If that's the reasoning behind your purchase, you drank the Kool-Aid...
where in my post did I say that mr. angry man?
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Old 08-01-07, 02:26 PM
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I cant say much about rolling resistance or handling as I haven’t had much first hand experience but I believe that a tubeless system w/ stans no tubes is the best for flat avoidance.

Mountain Biking
There is no doubt of the advantages of tubeless in this application. I remember flatting on a mountain bike trip in Arizona a few years back. I pulled 8 thorns out of the tire before I could install my new tube. The tube was toast. (cost/effort of 8 patches > price of new tube) Here is a video of a tubless tire with Stans riding over a board loaded with nails. No flats http://www.notubes.com/moviedemo.php

Commuting

I’ve had 5 flats commuting on my Fixie this year alone and 2 of them were pinch flats caused by my inattention to pot holes. (700c x 23mm @ 120 psi) What a pain!

Road riding
Aside from the weight penalty, I think this could be a good system for the road. I flatted once on my roadie this year and it was the first time ever on my GP4000s. I couldn’t believe it until I saw that a nail went right through the tire to the rim.

With tubeless, I believe that I would not have flattened in most/all cases mentioned above. Selection for road applications is not there yet but I beleive that it will become much more popular in the next few years.

Last edited by Tequila Joe; 08-01-07 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 08-01-07, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Pugsly View Post
It's a really nice wheelset, and a good option for heavier riders. I'm 6'3" and 210 pounds and it was the best option I could find that would take my weight in that price range ($700 street price).

Getting the tires to seal to the rim took a bit of figuring out, but once you have the technique down it is easy.
You don't see it?
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Old 08-01-07, 08:30 PM
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Hmm, if you think that best = only, then yes. Strangely enough, 'best' doesn't seem to be listed as a synonym for 'only'.

Only a complete idiot would think that the WH-7801-SL wheelset was the only option available, Mr. Angry Man. I recommend calling me names, or questioning my intelligence / experience / manhood next.

There have been a number of intelligent statements in this thread about why tubeless might be a good option for certain riders.

Last edited by Pugsly; 08-01-07 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 08-01-07, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Pugsly View Post
It's a really nice wheelset, and a good option for heavier riders. I'm 6'3" and 210 pounds and it was the best option I could find that would take my weight in that price range ($700 street price).

Getting the tires to seal to the rim took a bit of figuring out, but once you have the technique down it is easy.
another good option would be the regular tubed version of the DA wheels, available for under $500.
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Old 08-02-07, 12:34 AM
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Love the 7801-SL's. The early Hutchinson tires had some issues with deforming but those were solved once they did a redesign and added ribs along the interior. The SL's spin up very quickly- very advantageous when racing against pro/1/2's. The ability to use a latex sealent is also excellent.

I also like to be able to ride in wet crits with pressure at 90 psi. More surface area contact without pinch flats is great. Racing with wider tires is not an option.

Repairs are also a breeze. I don't need to take off either the stinking wheel and tire to repair a flat caused by small objects. I simply use Rep'air- a small bit of glue. Reinflate- and I'm good to go.

Once you get the hang of installing the tire, it's easier than changing a clincher. You don't have to worry about the tubes and snakebites. Seating it is a cinch.

I've ridden all sorts of wheels including Mavics, Bontragers, Rolfs, Shimano's, custom built wheels, American Classics, Cane Creeks, FSAs, Spinergys, Zipps to even tri-spoke Heds. (both tubular and clinchers)

Each has their strengths and weaknesses- but I really like how responsive the 7801-Sl's are. They are super stiff.
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Old 08-02-07, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Tequila Joe View Post
Commuting[/B]
I’ve had 5 flats commuting on my Fixie this year alone and 2 of them were pinch flats caused by my inattention to pot holes. (700c x 23mm @ 120 psi) What a pain!
1) Inflate your tires more
2) Stop riding into gigantic potholes
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Old 08-02-07, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Pugsly View Post
Hmm, if you think that best = only, then yes. Strangely enough, 'best' doesn't seem to be listed as a synonym for 'only'.

Only a complete idiot would think that the WH-7801-SL wheelset was the only option available, Mr. Angry Man. I recommend calling me names, or questioning my intelligence / experience / manhood next.

There have been a number of intelligent statements in this thread about why tubeless might be a good option for certain riders.
I hate to point out another fact, but YOU are the only one who has his knickers in a twist. Go back and actually read my posts, I just did.
The only anger and negativity in the thread is coming from you. Buyer's remorse perhaps?

If the D/A SL wheels were the "only" option you found at $700, you didn't look very hard. No anger or name-calling, just facts...
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Old 08-02-07, 07:37 AM
  #23  
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Insane thread.

Next thread: Let's argue about the color of the sky!
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Old 08-02-07, 07:54 AM
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not an insane thread or like arguing about the sky color. There is a new technology out there and someone wanted to discuss it. Like all new bike parts, there are instantly two sides:
Newer is better
Change sucks - this is a solution to a problem that does not exist

In the end, one side is usually right, but it takes time to see that. Sometimes new ideas stick, sometimes they do not. I would like to hear more about tubeless to be honest.
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Old 08-02-07, 08:15 AM
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I think I'll have a mod close this if it's just a personal argument now
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