Question concerning LBS operating procedure
 

I don't want to this to come off like a rant about local LBSs, but I doubt it's going to come across any other way. [To guard against this, I included a useful/productive question at the end].

First, let me say that I don't do any of my own wrenching. I'd love to, but wrenching is written in stone under the title "anything mechanical" on the list of skills I do not possess. I had a great relationship with my former shop(although my budget limits what i can spend, I do buy everything in shop), but one-too-many shoddy repairs forced me to recently change shops.

My new shop recently did a free and competent rear brake repair, so I took my bike back for some derailluer work. My front derailluer started "skipping," and in trying to repair the issue(there, you see, I tried to do something I can't do and only made it worse), I complicated the matter. I took the bike to the shop and did my best to explain the issue(have since forgotten exactly what I said).

A brief conversation insued:

The young worker(I'm not so old myself) said: "OK, we will get the front derailluer adjusted."
I said: "Well, I'm not sure if that's the entire problem."
He said something like, "Don't worry, we will take care of that derailluer."

I dropped the bike off two Fridays ago, and, because of my schedule, was only able to pick the bike up late this week. I, did though, have to call and make sure it was ready, so there's another strike against this shop. This morning was my first chance to ride it. The FD is fixed for the most part(still too much chain rub in my opinion; and no, I am not cross-chaining), but the now the RD is ghost-shifting. I understand enough about this issue to know to change the tension, expect, for some reason, the barrel adjuster does not want to turn.

I'm assuming(and could be wrong) that the young worker wrote "FD adjustment" on the work manifest, and that's pretty much what I received. The same protocol seemed to be in place at my last LBS. The mechanic always fixed exactly what you asked for, and nothing more. I guess I didn't make it clear that the work manifest should have said something like "gear issues, customer says maybe FD?".

I paid $10 for the FD adjustment, whereas a full tune-up would have cost me $35. I am partially at fault here, for hinting at the FD being the issue, but I also tried to point out the fact that I am stupid when it comes to bikes. I would have gladly paid the $35 dollars if that was what was needed. I know better then to walk in and announce that I need a "tune-up" knowing any shop will provide one whether that's what's needed or not. At the same time, why do LBSs listen to their obviously mechanically-challenged customers at all? That would be like me taking my car to the auto mechanic and telling them what to do about the pinging sound in my engine. I'm not sure how that would end up, but I think it would include one exploding car, a few dead mechanics, and a rather large lawsuit.

I'd like to be able to take my bike to the shop knowing that I can say, "I'm an idiot, but I trust you. Fix everything that is needed -- nothing more, nothing less," without fearing either a half-done job or me getting hosed. Is that really too much to ask?

I'm going to go talk to the manager when the shop opens. I know the shop owner and a few people who have since left town who are considered part of the "shop family." I'm not looking for special treatment, but instead, I want to support this LBS because friends have invested energy into its limited success.

I'm open to the idea that my "inexactness" in describing the issue is part of the problem. So, I ask you guys and gals: For someone like me who knows very little about bicycle mechanics/wrenching, what's the best way to go about requesting repairs and describing symptoms? I've always tried the "it's doing this, instead of this" and "it sounds like this" and "this happens when I do this" approach, but it seems like I am quickly making my way through my second LBS.

If this one does not work out, I want to know that I did everything to prevent having to tell the manager, "Really, don't feel bad. It's not you, it's me."

Forgive me but this is a case of the blind judging the blind. I never go into LBS because what you describe is what you get. Getting hosed or poor workmanship or both is part of the landscape...not unlike car dealerships btw only on a broader scale. You may think you can trust people but their livelihood depends on selling product. By contrast, engineering is my calling so I am much too discriminating to have a LBS tune or even touch my bikes. You are in a box of sorts. You are mechanical enough to know your bike is out of adjustment but not enough to know how to adjust it. If you ride in a group or a club there is likely an engineer or a mechanic that may adjust your bike for free...maybe even change a part or two from time to time. I try to help out my friends because helping others always gives back manifold friendships and other aspects of fulfillment. Try to seek out such an individual. I believe mechanical aptitude is largely etched in the DNA. Kind of like doing math. Some can do math and even calculus in high school without opening a book. Some can draw. Some can play music naturally etc. Good Luck if you are beholden to a LBS where they have kids working in there on your bike who only know enough to be dangerous. I can't tell you how many bikes I have fixed and tuned after the owner just got it back from a LBS and it didn't shift properly.

First, as a shop owner, I can tell you there is no such thing as an "LBS policy". Some shops are run well, most are not. Sad but true. Every case is different, and it sounds to me like there was a little communication dissonance between you and the appointed wrencher.

The MO at my shop is that until we know someone and their abilities, we probably over-explain a little. There is a difference between over-explaining something and talking down to someone.

We might have said something like:

"OK. I understand there is a drivetrain issue, and you believe it might involve the front derailleur. We will test ride your bike and pinpoint the problem. If it is, in fact a simple front derailleur adjustment, the charge is $10. If however, more is involved, we will call you and advise you on what it will take to fix the problem. In no event will the charge be over $10 unless you are called. BTW, if you bought your bike here, unless you crashed and bent something, there will be no charge for any minor adjustments."

I doubt that helps your current situation. I have had a lot of fun taking my bike to some of my "competitors" with something set slightly askew on purpose and been amused at how nobody (except one) found it. And I still can't believe so few shops can figure out how to adjust an STI triple front derailleur!:(

Good luck-and talk to the boss.

I too know little about working n bikes, but I was a certified auto technician and used to be a service writer at a couple auto dealerships. I think the biggest mistake people made when bringing their car to me was telling me what they thought the problem was. People would bring their car in and tell me that it needed an alignment. At some shops that's what they would get and then they would pick up the car with the problem still present.

A good advisor or technician would ask why the car needs an alignment. Then the customer would say it pulls to the right or left. This could be an alignment, but it could be a tire problem or some other issue.

I guess my advice is this: Do not tell them what component you think needs to be adjusted, tell the empoyee the symptoms then let him figure out the problem. That being said, the employee should have asked some questions, and I am sure if you talk to the store manager he will echo those sentiments.

Yeah I would bring the bike right back. I know it is a hassle for you to drag it to and from, but they shouldn't have a problem taking a closer look.

Next time, try asking for the head mechanic directly. If you can be as patient as possible and just kindly ask for someone "above", it will get you a long way. Maybe if you speak directly to the guy doing the repair, things won't get "lost in translation", so to speak. Plus, he will most probably have far more experience in the matter than someone who is paid $8/hr to write tickets and answer the phones.

Anyway, from a mechanical standpoint, how many miles have you put on the chain and cassette? How old is the bike and more specifically the shifting cables? Do you have a double or triple in the front and how old is it? If any of these parts are worn beyond their standard lifetimes, then shifting could be a problem.

BikeWise1,

I think you have a great business model operating on a very simple concept -- the contract. A person hands over money in exchange for certain work. If the work turns out to be different, the "contract" is re-written and the cost for the work changes. As a customer, I like knowing what is going to be fixed and what the cost will be before agreeing to the work.

BTW, judging from your username and location, I assume you own BikeWise in Oxford. I was in Oxford this spring looking at Miami U as a graduate school option. I stopped in BikeWise and was impressed with the inventory. Hopefully the mechanical work your shop provides is as beautiful as the shop.

Echoing BikeWise1 ... some shops are well run, and some are not. One local shop (a shout out to Bike Source) always has at least one very good head mechanic on staff, and the other wrenches don't hesitate to escalate a weird part or repair request to him the moment they're stumped. At two other nearby shops you might get stuck with the expertise/competence of the first guy who comes to help you -- someone who would as soon guess at the part you need or do unneeded/unhelpful work and send you off before seeking help from a more knowledgeable staff member. I suspect these last two shops employ mechanics who are independent jobbers -- purely a guess, though.

With all due respect, I work with a guy that I am trying to convince to go to work with Slipstream as a wrench. He works in an LBS. My guess is he's at least as good a wrench as you are an engineer. I work with another who is a former pro level mechanic, having worked for several US pro teams over the years. Both work in a shop.

Are all engineers dorks that button their shirts to the top button, and either have a pocket protector or an ink stain on their shirts? That can't carry on a normal conversation without boring the crap out of every human in the room with their little details and monotone voices? And have no sense of humor but would rather sit home reading technical journals? See how we can stereotype?

What an amazing pile of crap...

Harsh! :rolleyes:

[quote= engineering is my calling so I am much too discriminating to have a LBS tune or even touch my bikes. .[/QUOTE]

You are an engineer and have enough common sense to use your hands? I promise you are an exception. I work with many engineers in my line of work, most can't pour piss out of a boot unless the directions are on the bottom. Very smart people, but nooooooooo common sense at all. You should go far in your field.

Just tell them the DR's need to be adjusted. They'll figure out the rest.

I would go somewhere else or thoroughly read Park's website and just do it myself.

Good god- over a week for a 5 minute adjustment!! :eek:

The biggest knock against LBS mechanics should not be how skilled they are - you clearly have some compentant people to pick from. The knock should be the kind of work they often do. Many of us have stopped using LBSs for repairs simply because of the work that gets done. You drive across town to take it in, you wait a week and if it's fixed at all, something else is often wrong.

I have little doubt that there are 1000s of LBS wrenches that are far more skilled than I am. But I'm pretty sure that there are very few that have the time or are willing to invest the time to do repairs on my bike the way I do them. I honestly doubt that many wrenches with a typical workload can afford to spend an hour tweaking my RD and taking it out for test rides. That's the kind of dedication I give my bikes because I like them to work perfectly. I honestly can't expect anyone in a retail situation to do the same and in my experience that has often been the case. For me it's faster and less frustrating to just do it myself.

I think the LBS service industry does a great job for people that often don't really know how well their bikes can work. The problems lie with with mismatched expectations. Experienced, perfectionist customers and busy, harried mechanics. And yes, there are extremes on both sides - nutcase customers and lame wrenches. I just don't think the extremes are indicative of the real world.

And oh yea, I'm an engineer too.

I am a wrench. I am also a seasonal employee, working for the summer while I am on break from college. I am a firsthand witness that there are plenty of hacks in the business who spend way too much time on the stupid repairs and way to little on the things that count. Its all in the work ethic. When I work on a bike, I enjoy the feeling of seeing it come from its crappy state into one of a well oiled machine. And thats when I work on the Wal-mart bikes that so many people bring me. When I get a nice bike to work on, I consider it to be my own, for that 1.5 hours that I may spend on a tune-up. As such, I test ride it (if there is any mystery to the problem), work on it, ride it again, and then provide it with my person seal of approval, the statement-- "I would ride it, :)"

For me, its best when a customer comes in, and explains what symptoms are observed, to the best of their ability, and lets me figure out what needs to be done. For the most part, that involves an on the spot inspection, throwing the bike up on the stand and having a look. An estimate is made, written up, and the customer is informed that if anything more has to be done, he will be called. Sometimes the customer says just fix it, so I do. Other times, they say "if it will cost x dollars more, call me. below x dollars, just do it" Thats fine, but its exactly like do-well put it, its a contract. Pure and simple.

Thats how I do business. Its not necessarily how others at the shop where I work do business. I simply stand behind my work, and as such, I have become the requested mechanic by several customers, and been put in charge of special projects, that require careful attention to detail.

Here's the kicker-- I've only been riding since last november, and have only worked at a shop since mid June.

Its all about the mechanic, not necessarily the shop. The shop may set the MO, but its up to the mechanic to do the work, and do it right. Make friends with your mechanic. :)

-Steve

Yes, I am the owner! Thank you for your kind comments! Stop by next time you're in town!:beer:

If you are not mechanically inclined, why are you telling the lbs your opinion on the problem? That is like me going to my doctor and telling him I am having stomach pains and I think it is an ulcer, do the operation and fix it!

I have no idea what the problem is, all I know is the symptoms. Tell your lbs your symptoms, let them diagnose the problem and quote a price. Why care if you get "hosed". If the price they quote fixes the problem and you will be happy with the problem gone for that price, then great. Don't think about if you are paying too much for a part and so many hours, think of it as for x amount, my problem will be gone.

Normally it'd be a case of you coming in and us asking 'what's wrong'. If you say 'gears are skipping' And we would tell you to come back in X amount of time plus we'd give you a quote. We'd completely check over the shifting system and if its a simple fix we'd call and tell you you could pick it up. If it was gonna cost more to fix than quoted, we'd call you before doing anything. Rule #1 is you can never charge more than quoted on a job unless contact has been made and price accepted.

Very well said. With that approach, whatever you choose to do, you will be successful.

Yes. Good ones, that is.

Man, you have us pegged. Did you somehow get a copy of the 'How to be an Engineer' instruction manual?


That's actually wrong. I think the average engineer has far more wit than the average person does. But we would rather read a technical journal than talk to an average person. Or maybe that's just me.

Our shop policies are just like Bikewise's, though there are exceptions to the "always call" policy.

We often get customers filling out their repair slips leaving no phone number, a wrong phone number, an illegible phone number or a number that no one answers. When these repairs are due by a certain date, and we run into additional issues or parts needed, I will often take it upon myself to do the additional repair to make the bike 100% without a verbal confirmation. I have yet to argue with a customer over doing this, though I have had some argue about other issues we weren't asked to perform. If one of them did have a problem with me taking initiative, I run the risk of having to give them the repair for free (some shops may even take this out of the wrenches pay) as well as "losing rep" in the customer's eyes, but I've found that most people are like the OP and just want their bike fixed. That is after all why they brought it in to us in the first place: They wanted and were willing to pay for a professional opinion.

This may all seem overly semantical, but that is the real issue for most shops: Communication. By that I mean if do-well has issues with the repairs done at the first shop, he has several options. If the repair was incorrect or incomplete, any shop should make it right at no charge once it is pointed out. We're all human, we can all make mistakes and exclusions. The worth of a good shop is measured in how well they follow up.

If a mistake is made, one can also say nothing, mentally and emotionally store a "bad mark" against the shop, and now have the expectation that they'll just screw it up again. With this outlook, there isn't a shop out there that can live up. Depending upon how high the expectations are placed (and they are typically raised after the first "bad mark") it's just a matter of time before you'll be let down.

+1 to this.