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Avoiding suicidal runners/joggers

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Avoiding suicidal runners/joggers

Old 09-24-07, 09:33 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Accident View Post
ouch.

Just for the few of you who seem to think that the sidewalk is meant for running...
here are the two densities of surface being discussed.
concrete 150lbs per cubic ft.
asphalt 45lbs per cubic ft.
3 and a 1/3 times harder of a surface to run on. Damn, do you still think it's a vanity thing to run on the road?
Density has nothing to do with stiffness. Look at Mercury and Boron/Carbon. Even if you had looked up the correct numbers, though, it wouldn't matter - 3.3Xinfinity = infinity. The surface doesn't deflect, your shoes and body does.

So concrete deflects .001" and asphalt .002", while your shoe deflect .200". No difference from a stiffness perspective.

From a ease of running... sidewalks are a pain in the ass to run on because of curbs, driveways, expansion joints, etcetera.
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Old 09-24-07, 09:34 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by rugerben View Post
Yeah, I dunno why they aren't on the sidewalk to start with. When I run/jog, I always use the sidewalk.
That depends on the area in which they are running. There are no sidewalks in some areas. If sidwalks are available, in some areas there are likely to be pedestrians walking, which would create an scenario similar to the cyclist-motorist dilema. Bikes are too fast for the sidewalks according to pedestrians, but they don't belong on the road according to motorists. We all know we need a small "easment" on the road.

Busy sidewalks are not for many runners for the same reason. Also, because of the big differential between running speed and motorist speed, runners are safest going against the traffic where they can see what's coming at them and react accordingly. As such they have the same obligations that we cyclists have; to be conspicuous by wearing bright colors, light and reflectors in dim light and darkness, and to run in a predictable manner. Besides; concrete sidewalks can be hell on some knees, black top is a bit more forgiving.

Just keep an sharp eye out for them, and share the road. (I have almost hit one or two at a tricky intersection on occasion too.) Just as we expect motorists to give us a break; give them a break too.
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Old 09-24-07, 09:39 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by littlewaywelt View Post
...because cyclists (vehciles) are required to yeild to runners (pedestrians) in almost all cases by law. I'm a 50mpw runner and a cyclist. Runners run side by side because it's easier to talk that way and wind resistance/drafting isn't an issue like it is for cyclists.

getting rear ended while cycling is incredibly rare and there are plenty of threads in this forum that discuss it. Riding head on towards traffic is nuts. If I'm riding at 20mph and I get rear ended by a car doing 45, there's a net of 25 mph at the impact. I'll take that in a second over the same impact headon which results in a 65mph impact.
That law is designed to protect pedestrians walking across the street. Not when pedestrians or joggers are running in traffic lanes. Imagine getting on a street and running down the middle with cars piling up behind you. You might have the legal right to do so in America (where we assume pedestrians are stupid and irresponsible). Why should it be any different for a designated bike lane? I run a lot, but I generally run as far to the side as possible and defer to vehicles when I am in their lanes. Now if I am running on the sidewalk and a bike comes by, I don't move at all and why should I?
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Old 09-24-07, 09:43 AM
  #79  
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As a runner and a biker I have to say that I've seen many more rude bikers then runners. And, I also will move out to the street if there is no traffic coming because I can see what is coming being that I am facing it. I wave the rider to the inside. Works well so far. On the other hand, when I've been on a dedicated path where we are all staying to the right I have many times NOT heard "on your left" from a biker whizzing by. SHARE THE ROADS AND PATHS Y'ALL Sheeeesh! Is it so hard to all get along?
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Old 09-24-07, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by piper_chuck View Post
It's funny that you choose to disparage a runner taking action against a cyclist who is playing chicken with a runner, but have nothing to say about the cyclist playing chicken in the first place. Your bias also shows when you accuse the runner of being "too selfish to move out of the way", as if they don't also have a right to use the road. As has been said, this same attitude exists among car drivers toward cyclists. I wonder what you would think of the same arguments from a car driver?
You obviously didn't read my entire posts. I'm talking about a runner who has room to move over but does not. I am not playing chicken so much as I am holding my line because I am already as far to the left as is safe. Did you read the part where I said I would happily check traffic and move over if the runner has no options? Please read before you go flaming away

And I am a cyclist who has played contact football. Even if I had not, I'd still rather contend with a linebacker than a car. You obviously missed the point, and assumed that I side with the cyclist, even though I have been a runner as well. Once again, please read the entire post before making assumptions. Thanks.
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Old 09-24-07, 09:49 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by SkyeC View Post
I don't know about some of you guys but I tend to keep an eye on what's behind me in traffic so swerving out of the way for potholes, glass, people, isn't a big deal.
+1. Even with my usual riding territory (narrow winding New England roads), I've almost always seen runners with plenty of time to safely get around. There are no bike lanes in my area, and many of the roads are narrow enough that you can't park on the road, as there is no room. I can't imagine how avoiding a pedestrian is an issue. What are you looking at? The road two inches in front of your wheel? Plan ahead! It's not that hard.
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Old 09-24-07, 09:49 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Treefox View Post
squirt them with your water bottle. If that doesn't work, consider a can of mace strapped to your handlebars.

Reminds me of the arugments motorists make about sharing the road with cyclists.

::Cyclist says: "They don't belong on the road.
Why aren't they running on the sidewalk?"

:edestrian says: "They don't belong on the sidewalk!
Why aren't they running in the street?.

::Runner says: "Where the heck am I supposed to run?
Danged if I do and danged if I don't!"

-- Or is that "danged if I don't and dinged if I do"
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Old 09-24-07, 09:50 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by samsation7 View Post
I don't either. Runners prefer the roads for some reason, and that means bike lane, designated for people riding bikes. I think it probably has to do with the fact that bike lane is wider while some side walks are narrow with moms pushing toddlers around or whatever. However, in my neighborhoods, sidewalks are always vacant of pedestrians.

I was involved in long distant running for 7 years and I was always told by my coach to run on the asphalt instead of the side walk. And we were always supposed to run against traffic. I am not sure for what reason though.
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Old 09-24-07, 09:56 AM
  #84  
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I really think you guys are overthinking this. Run where it is safest for everyone. Try to be polite and not be a dummy. Now lets get out there and have fun. By the way I am getting ready to go jog on concrete and cross major streets. Lots of bikes too.
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Old 09-24-07, 10:48 AM
  #85  
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That depends on your definition of safe. Risking knee injuries isn't safe in my book.
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Old 09-24-07, 11:23 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
That depends on your definition of safe. Guaranteed knee injuries isn't safe in my book.
Fixed that for you.
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Old 09-24-07, 11:49 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by hally View Post
As a runner and a biker I have to say that I've seen many more rude bikers then runners. And, I also will move out to the street if there is no traffic coming because I can see what is coming being that I am facing it. I wave the rider to the inside. Works well so far. On the other hand, when I've been on a dedicated path where we are all staying to the right I have many times NOT heard "on your left" from a biker whizzing by. SHARE THE ROADS AND PATHS Y'ALL Sheeeesh! Is it so hard to all get along?
I don't know about other cyclists but I am not comfortable going inside on a runner. If you are in the drive lane and have to get out of the way of a car you are going to have to move in my direction, that leaves me two choices hit you and crash or go into the curb and crash, neither good alternatives. If you go inside and I have to move toward you it is rather easy for a runner to hop the curb to get out of my way. In addition you say you will move into the street if there is no traffic, well you can tell this because you are running against traffic, I can't so I cannot anticipate if you are going to hold your line, move right or move left.

Generally following common traffic rules works i.e. pass slower traffic on the left, just because you are running against the flow of traffic doesn't mean everyone's rules change.
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Old 09-24-07, 01:04 PM
  #88  
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I just got back from a 3 mile run here in downtown Indy. I ran on sidewalks, streets and paths. I was passed by several bikes and everything went very well. I think it all comes down to that most rare thing of all "common" sense. I guess this is why we have forums though, to talk things out.
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Old 09-24-07, 01:10 PM
  #89  
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I imagine somewhere on a runner's forum is a paralell topic about cyclists who don't share the road with runners-with equally passionate arguments on both sides. I have on a few occasions bike in New York City's Central Park. The inner roadway is closed to cars on weekends, which means that the bikes have the entire roadway, yet, somehow a bunch of bikes always seem to wind up on the designated runner's path, sometimes with unfortunate results of a collison; bruised flesh and scratched bikes. The path is clearly marked for runners with a paralell lane marked for bikes.

Bottom line is we should all be considerate of the other. Plain and simple.
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Old 09-24-07, 01:25 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
That law is designed to protect pedestrians walking across the street. Not when pedestrians or joggers are running in traffic lanes.
You don't know the origins of the law...that's your opinion. The law makes no difference between runners & pedestrians. They are the same thing.

Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
Imagine getting on a street and running down the middle with cars piling up behind you. You might have the legal right to do so in America (where we assume pedestrians are stupid and irresponsible). Why should it be any different for a designated bike lane? I run a lot, but I generally run as far to the side as possible and defer to vehicles when I am in their lanes.
I've never seen a runner running down the middle of the street with traffic coming at him or behind him. We're not stupid. We understand that in order to not shorten our lives we need to stay out of the way of cars. I generally yeild to bikes to, just because it's easier and I'd prefer not to rely on whether someone else understands right of way.

Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
Now if I am running on the sidewalk and a bike comes by, I don't move at all and why should I?
Bikes are generally not supposed to be on sidewalks and as a pedestrian on a sidewalk you have the right of way.

Last edited by littlewaywelt; 09-24-07 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 09-24-07, 01:32 PM
  #91  
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My own personal rant is a couple local running clubs that think they have mob rule because they run in a pack of 100 or so. They take up the entire road and expect cars/motorists and pedestrians to climb poles for safety until they pass. Even after they get into their lil homemade event for a few miles they still run 5-6 across which is enough to cover the sidewalk AND bike lanes.

In a couple instances with these guys I have to admit I've done the chicken thing too(other choice was come to a dead stop or veer into traffic causing traffic to stop) and I usually let them know they are ruining it for everyone.
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Old 09-24-07, 01:33 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by ElJamoquio View Post
Density has nothing to do with stiffness. Look at Mercury and Boron/Carbon. Even if you had looked up the correct numbers, though, it wouldn't matter - 3.3Xinfinity = infinity. The surface doesn't deflect, your shoes and body does.

So concrete deflects .001" and asphalt .002", while your shoe deflect .200". No difference from a stiffness perspective.

From a ease of running... sidewalks are a pain in the ass to run on because of curbs, driveways, expansion joints, etcetera.
I do a small bit of barefoot running (with a set of vibram 5 fingers) and the difference between concrete and asphalt is quite easy to feel.
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Old 09-24-07, 01:35 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by AGGRO View Post
My own personal rant is a couple local running clubs that think they have mob rule because they run in a pack of 100 or so. They take up the entire road and expect cars/motorists and pedestrians to climb poles for safety until they pass. Even after they get into their lil homemade event for a few miles they still run 5-6 across which is enough to cover the sidewalk AND bike lanes.

In a couple instances with these guys I have to admit I've done the chicken thing too and I usually let them know they are ruining it for everyone.
Like cycling clubs?

My take is, if they get in my way (either), big deal. What's a few minutes out of my day, and in the end they have right of way.
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Old 09-24-07, 01:36 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by littlewaywelt View Post
Like cycling clubs?

My take is, if they get in my way (either), big deal. What's a few minutes out of my day, and in the end they have right of way.

I feel the same about cycling clubs but at least they are going in the same direction at speed or approaching the speed limit.

It's not about a few minutes of my day, it's about the safety hazard they are causing everyone around them when they feel they must exhibit such behavior. Mob behavior.

Have you ever played a game like centipede? That's what it is like after they've run a couple miles. They are all across the area that cover miles.

I run more than probably most of em and I've never had to run 5-10 across just because I can.

That logic is supposed to be reserved for Critical Mass.

Last edited by AGGRO; 09-24-07 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 09-24-07, 02:02 PM
  #95  
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to the OP
live and let live? no... that would never work. share the road is a popular motto around here.

just go around them and quit crying.

pretty simple.
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Old 09-24-07, 02:25 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by AGGRO View Post
I feel the same about cycling clubs but at least they are going in the same direction at speed or approaching the speed limit.

It's not about a few minutes of my day, it's about the safety hazard they are causing everyone around them when they feel they must exhibit such behavior. Mob behavior.

Have you ever played a game like centipede? That's what it is like after they've run a couple miles. They are all across the area that cover miles.

I run more than probably most of em and I've never had to run 5-10 across just because I can.

That logic is supposed to be reserved for Critical Mass.
I can barely stand running w/ one other person let alone a group run like that. Never done it and don't plan on it. While I might think that behavior not smart, safety-wise, again, if they want to so be it. I'm not going to get all irritated or fuss with them because they have inconvenienced me. It only becomes unsafe when ppl lose their patience and try to squeeze by. The motorist has no right not to be inconvenienced. This argument starts/always seems to be about convenience. It only moves to safety after the fact.
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Old 09-24-07, 02:42 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by littlewaywelt View Post
I can barely stand running w/ one other person let alone a group run like that. Never done it and don't plan on it. While I might think that behavior not smart, safety-wise, again, if they want to so be it. I'm not going to get all irritated or fuss with them because they have inconvenienced me. It only becomes unsafe when ppl lose their patience and try to squeeze by. The motorist has no right not to be inconvenienced. This argument starts/always seems to be about convenience. It only moves to safety after the fact.
How is being either pushed into a traffic lane outside the bike lane or being possibly knocked down by runners if you come to a complete stop to watch the parade go by 25 times in an hour about convenience? There are about a hundred of them and they are strung out with bunches of up to 10 and they run 5-10 across at times. Cars are the least affected by them, mostly other runners, walkers and cyclists.

I try to avoid the area all together but they have it on different days at different times and different twists to thier route with the only static being 100 runners who have a mob mentality.

You are cracking me up trying to justify their behavior.
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Old 10-16-08, 03:48 PM
  #98  
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Hope it's okay to bump this thread. This happens to me all the time. I don't mind if a runner is running towards me, but I think there should be some protocol for which way to divert. I always try to stick to my right, but invariably the runner wants to go to his left. That's probably a good idea, actually, if the bicyclist is going fast (say over 10MPH), but when I'm huffing and puffing climbing a hill doing 3MPH, and he's sailing down the hill at close to 10MPH, it makes more sense, at least from where I sit and spin, for each of us to stick to his right. The road in question is winding and it's hard for me to see cars behind me, whereas the runner has a clear view of what's behind me. Any runners have thoughts on this situation?
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Old 10-16-08, 03:56 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Bacana View Post
Hope it's okay to bump this thread. This happens to me all the time. I don't mind if a runner is running towards me, but I think there should be some protocol for which way to divert. I always try to stick to my right, but invariably the runner wants to go to his left. That's probably a good idea, actually, if the bicyclist is going fast (say over 10MPH), but when I'm huffing and puffing climbing a hill doing 3MPH, and he's sailing down the hill at close to 10MPH, it makes more sense, at least from where I sit and spin, for each of us to stick to his right. The road in question is winding and it's hard for me to see cars behind me, whereas the runner has a clear view of what's behind me. Any runners have thoughts on this situation?
What you're essentially saying is that the person traveling at the lesser speed takes the inside lane. That has the potential to be confusing and dangerous. I just wish runners were more consistent. Sometimes they're running with traffic. Sometimes they're running against traffic. Sometimes they want an inside lane. Sometimes an outside lane.
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Old 10-16-08, 04:58 PM
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Well, I actually think that people should stick to their right, if they can in situations in which the travelers aren't moving that quickly, such as when two pedestrians meet or, as happened to me last weekend, two slow-moving bicyclists meet.

However, in situations in which there is a great disparity in speeds, I'd probably do things differently. For example, if I'm coming down a hill at 30MPH or so, and I see a runner coming at me, I'm going to give him wide berth by going into the road, assuming there are no cars coming at me.
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