bikesdirect_com

[quote=ezee;5518838]the current production "Motos" from the far east have no connection with France aside from the name

QUOTE]

Just wondering if you think current Masi bikes have anything to do with Italy
Current Raleighs have anything to do with England
Current Fujis have anything to do with Japan
How about all those Peugeots i bought in from Canada?
What about the new Cannondales from China; what do they have to do with the previous company from 10 years back?

Should Brand Names have any value which can be sold? The value of the brand names in the Schwiin, GT, and Cannondale bankruptcies were very important to help employees, suppliers, and other creditors recover part of their loses. Brand Names are sold and lincesed all the time. I have sold and linsesed several myself; in addition to buying and licensing others. It is a standard part of business.

AbsoluteZ3RO

did you buy one?

My dad purchased a competetors "kit" a few years back. He's got about 20 grand invested in his cobra replica. He loves it. It's got a 351 cleveland in it and will absolutely walk away from anyting in town other than the most radical cars (porsche turbo, corvette z06, etc.).

How does this relate to bikes? Well I guess it's all about enjoyment. Is it a "real" cobra? No, but he probably gets the same amount of enjoyment for significantly less money, and most people who ask him about it don't have a clue it's not the real thing until he tells them. Like his Cobra, the Motobecane isn't the "real" french bike from way back, but if it is enjoyable, and performes well (perhaps better) - who cares. Not me, and I'd consider myself a bit of a brand name snob.

robow

"Just wondering if you think current Masi bikes have anything to do with Italy
Current Raleighs have anything to do with England
Current Fujis have anything to do with Japan
How about all those Peugeots i bought in from Canada?
What about the new Cannondales from China; what do they have to do with the previous company from 10 years back?"

Mike, I think you're wasting your time here, many of these people haven't been in the business field long enough to see that this occurs all the time in most industries that have any history whatsoever.

ezee

Thus... ''But hey, if the price is right, and he succeeds in making a (or very many) sale(s) and the end customers (and his high 5-ing business partners) are all happy- knowing all the above... what else matters?''

Aikidoka

ezee,

The whole car comparison isnt a good analogy...just me seizing an opportunity to rant a bit about one of my favorite cars...

ciao

halfspeed

It's too bad they do. Whether it's "standard practice" or not, the whole point of buying a brand is buying a reputation you didn't earn.

Let's put it this way, if the bicycle designer at Trek retired and sold me his identity and I presented his resume to you as my own and you hired me based on that, wouldn't you feel defrauded when you found out what I had done? And how is that different from you buying a retired bicycle brand and selling me your bikes with ad copy that lists the famous victories won on bikes made by the previous owner?

openclassmx

Fair enough. It was just the first sports car that came to mind (made by a company that disappeared).

Aikidoka

No I didnt, I was selling a business and after 8 or so years of working 24/7/365 the last thing I wanted then was a "comittment" of ANY kind...hahahah. Amigo...You should steal the keys...

Moving on...

1) If you research, you'll find a zillion companies out there making high-end bikes, I mean they are everywhere. Brand names that sure never existed 5/10/20 years ago. Most if not all of the "original" bike companies dont even resemble what they were years ago, many are out of business, even more are now subsidaries of other companies run by profit & loss sheets by guys who could give a s--t what you and I really think. Its just business. Most of the "old gaurd" are out of the bike business and Taiwan/China "own" the production end of it all...ALL of it.

2) I wont pretend to know Mikes business but I've said it before...he's a very savvy guy to do what he did with some brand names that were floating around in space. He could have produced crap bikes under the Motobecane label...he didnt. He produces some extremely fine quality bikes that are "high-end value oriented". This is very smart business because he has a niche market where he doesnt have to compete with the other guys who are all after the same very small piece of pie. Mike/BD have a "niche" and if you want to succeed in business you either have a niche or be better than the other guys. Whose better?..Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Jamis, etc? or who is better...Cervelo, Colnago, BMC, etc...? you get my point here...Mike doesnt compete with them altho many think he does...he doesnt. THATS the beauty of it all as I see it.

I'd much rather see Motobecane USA as Mike/BD does it than in K-mart like Mongoose.

ciao

Aikidoka

Last comment...then snooze time.

What would you guys rather see...ANOTHER $3000-$5000 (per bike) company that is barely different than the 75+ other bike companies out there or a company that delivers very high quality for alot LESS than the other guys are doing?

I'm not comparing the 2....just posing a question that I think gets to the bottom of all this. If you answer the question above without emotion or value judgement I think its a question worth looking at. As a consumer I want both.

ciao

Do we really need another mega-buck bike company ?

Brian Ratliff

^^^
Not the point. It's not the names that make the bikes cheap, in fact, the purchase of the rights to the names in the US probably adds a bit of cost to the price of the bike. How about a bikesdirect.com which developed its own brand name?

I honestly don't think the BD is doing all that well. bikesdirect_com is far too defensive about his business model to be free of doubt about it's effectiveness. I suspect that he's got to sell an awful lot of bikes to make up for the small margins he must be making on each bike. It wouldn't be the first time that a small business thought it could beat the big guys in the value market. There's a reason why most small businesses live in nitches and charge a premium for their products or services.

Who knows though. He might be reading this and laughing his ass off as he makes his way to the bank.

voltman

If they actually bring innovation to the table, yes.

bikesdirect_com

Thanks for your concern
However, I have 100% confidence in my business model
After doing this for 30 years, I have it dailed in.
And even though I was the largest chain of bike stores in the country for over 10 years; I am doing better now than ever.
I do not at all regret giving up my previous career to be in the bike business.

Sorry that I sound defensive sometimes; that is more due to lack of wriiting skills than anything else. I wish could be much better at writing.

bikesdirect_com

Should Brand Names have any value which can be sold?
[QUOTE=halfspeed;5523533]It's too bad they do. Whether it's "standard practice" or not, the whole point of buying a brand is buying a reputation you didn't earn.

QUOTE]

You really need to think that thru
Without the value build up in a brand many companies would be hard pressed to stay competitive or even in business. You are basiclly saying Schwinn, GT, Cannondale should all be gone now period. In addition, you are saying consumers should not have the right to prefer one brand over another. Consumer freedom is what creates Brand Value. And what about funding company growth? COKE has a lot of assets; which asset do you think is worth the most? I bet most business people and shareholders would say the brand names they own.

A Brand Name is an asset that a company should be able to build and sell; just like any other asset. I sold one of my brand names last year to another bike company - they are happy with it and I was happy with the sale. Customers seem to like it too; who is the loser here? Plus I spent time and money building that brand; I owned it; why shouldn't I be able to sell it? Still a free country, correct?

I think any business professional will agree that in free markets; transactions of assets should not be limited by some outside parties idea of which assets are fair game for transfer. That is just the idea I got from Adam Smith [not my original thought; but I agree with it]

roadwarrior

[QUOTE=bikesdirect_com;5518922]Time out...there was no change at Cannondale. They have their factory in Bedford, offices in Holland, Japan, and Australia, as well as their headquarters in Connecticut. If anything, after the 2003 bankruptcy they ended up a lot stronger after being purchased by Pegasus Partners LLC, who are basically investment bankers, who, by the way, were owed money by the bankrupt company.

They've recently expanded their factory, and their work force. Except for the Synpase carbon frame, they were making everything in the US until they decided to outsource sport hardtails and some less expensive hybrids to compete at the mid-$300 level with Giant and Trek (previously only making a mid-$500 bike as their starter in those classes). The Super Six, the all carbon race bike is made in Bedford. What's funny is that even in the outsourced less expensive stuff, Cannondale has managed to maintain their "look", that being there's no ugly weld line ripples along the frame joints.

Innovative? The inventor of aluminum road frames now makes one aluminum road bike, the CAAD9.

Cannondale was not a name that was sold to someone else to slap on a bike from who knows where. I've been to the Cannondale factory. There are Cannondale employees making Cannondale bikes paid by said company. Engineers, frame builders, testers, marketers, sales staff, you name it, it's there.

Selling a brand name is manufacturing a generic frame (nothing wrong with that by the way, but it's easy to sell against) and putting whatever sticker on the downtube.

Some customers want to be able to, if there's a problem with their frame, to bring it back to someone, look them in the eye, and know that it's being looked at. Others have no issue with boxing up and shipping the bike back to who knows who for review and not be able to actually be there while it's being looked at. Plenty for everyone. One method's more personal, one less so. Customer chooses. That's the great thing about a capitalistic society. The market decides. Plenty of room for Nordstrom's and Wal Mart.

Cannondale must be doing something very well. Their results caused two major bike manufacturers to spread lies about them at Interbike. Usually competition does not lie about another competitor unless they are getting their @$$es kicked in the marketplace.

bikesdirect_com

[quote=roadwarrior;5524387]
Sorry
You missed my point


My point was and is: If value of Brand Name could not be acquired; then Schwinn, GT, and Cannondale would have been worth much less money in reorganization. Those names have value and thus people were interested in buying the assets thru the courts.

And YES- Cannondale is a " name that was sold to someone else to slap on a bike from who knows where" -- excpet we do now know where. And I for one think that the reason the book was pulled off the street to resell the Company [including name of course] is that the management is cleaver and knows they will increase brand name value thru the importing of complete bikes which they have just now started. This is good business; I think the new owners are sharp and know exactly what they are doing.


I have no issue with Cannondale, Schwinn, or GT -- the new owners helped out all the creditors by being willing to step up with their cash and take those assets [including the names]

rufvelo

BD you sell a good value product. I may even buy one some day. But you do understand why people, myself included, first inquire if the decals are clear coated, or I can peel them off before that first group ride with the bike. The guys do recognize the real Moto, Colnago, Schwinn, Masi etc. Further half the world who disagrees on brand origin does have a valid opinion too, one that does matter, just not reinforcing that brand. People's opinions make brands - they are all valid opinions and not a product of being uneducated/misinformed.

bikesdirect_com

It is a complicated issue and here is why.
If bikes are sold without brand name they are actually more expensive.

And if everyone stripped decals then all bikes would cost consumers more. This might be a little confusing; but the name brand on the DT is part of the benefit that growing companies get from selling bikes. That is part of the reason mature companies growth wise like Trek have to charge more for bikes {they are no longer getting much brand id benefit from extra sales}.

Brand Name appreciation is a major benefit to bike sellers that keeps prices low.
Luckily; almost no consumers remove decals [except track guys]

halfspeed

I think it's sad that Richard Schwinn can't sell bikes under his own name built in a former Schwinn factory with Schwinn methods, Schwinn designs and many former Schwinn employees.

Again, I ask why can't I buy/sell professional identities? Why isn't it legal for me to buy the name and resume of retired professionals in my field? Have they not spent decades building that reputation and is that not their greatest personal asset? Should they not be able to sell it? And should I not be able to buy it, use it, improve it and sell it again? Is that not the free market at work?

Quite the opposite. I am saying that consumers have the right to make informed choices about the products they buy and that includes being able to trust that a brand represents the business they think it does.

All but the most avid defenders of free markets favor some limits on the market to control fraud and coercion. And I think that using brands divorced of the businesses that created the value they hold skirts very close to the definition of fraudulent.

Perversely, the increasingly widespread process of trading in brands may eventually devalue brands because it undermines the whole point in making decisions with the brand in mind.

bikesdirect_com

Very interesting points:

SCHWINN - the Schwinn family benefited from selling the brand name; they should be allowed to sell it and keep it too. How would that work? Plus if the court had not been able to transfer the brand to the new buyer; suppliers, employees, and other creditors would have lost even more.

PROFESSIONAL ID SALES: Did you see the Princess Bride? now that is a funny movie - plus the music is by my favorite guitar god. Anyway, the hero buys the name 'priate robert' from the previous 'private robert' who had actually bought it from the original 'private robert'. Now that was funny.
Anyway, Professional corporations have people's names in them all the time and build up a value beyond the working life of the founders; those are brand names that have value. If you are really good at what you do; get an LLC and build up a brand value selling your services and also farm out some of the work to others who can do the same type work under your name. Soon you may have a valuable brand you can sell. Long live the free market; as you never see free people where there is no free market.

kk4df

I suggest you consider having some "bikesdirect.com" labels available for your customers. Now they need to look really nice. They could be the kind to either go on the seat tube (where a lot of shops will put their label) or even headtube or chainstays. I would personally rather my bike say bikesdirect than Bottecchia or Motobecane; other riders know it's not the "original" Bottecchia or Motobecane, and many look down on this rebranding. But a small label advertising "bikesdirect.com" might go on my bike, as long as it was small and looked nice.

Walter

rankin116

I guess I'm getting a little off the economics and branding topic here, but anyone who does 5 minutes of research on Motobecane can find that these are frames made by Kinesis in Taiwan. I did, and I still bought it. From what I read, Kinesis makes quality frames for many companies, and is run by former executives from Giant(I think).

Someone above said they peel the decals off. That's not a bad idea I guess. I personally don't care. If anyone asked me about mine, I would say it is a Kinesis, that paints it Motobecane.

bikesdirect_com

Not a bad response!
And Kinesis 'paints' lots of bikes Trek, Specialized, Kona, Giant, Felt, Raleigh, and on and on. Informed consumers are a good thing. But people do still like brand names.

thanks for your support and business
mike

celerystalksme

when i was considering getting a Motobecane Immortal Spirit, you know what the one thing i didn't like was? the way it looked! if they got a hot paint job for that thing and a better looking "motobecane' sticker, i might not have ended up at the LBS to get fitted. i probably wouldn't have been able to resist something both affordable AND pretty.

but then ii sould have missed out because my LBS was amazing and got me an unbeatable deal. so i guess it all worked out!

Aikidoka

I wrote the MOTO SL-Force review for this thread as a possible tool for people to evaluate a potential bike purchase. One problem I had was sorting through fact versus fiction about certain things, one of them the "real" value/quality of the Motobecane's I was considering purchasing. Lets just say...opinions varied.

My final asessement prior to purchase was that people who had bought a Motobecane such as mine (and similar from BD) were unanimously satisfied. The only people who had any issue(s) were those who had no experience with the bike(s). I then discounted those opinions from my decision.

I doubt many, if any consider things such as who owns a brand name, where the bike is made and even if the decals are easy to remove (to me thats pretty silly) prior to purchase. We are far too involved with price/value/performance and of course the mother of all purchase decision factors...emotion.

ciao

Aikidoka

I just read the last few posts...

Mike KK4DF is on to something I think. A Bikes Direct.com label tastefully applied sort of brings everything out of the closet (so to speak) and sure wont hurt your brand awareness.

ciao