Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

what's so great about lugs?

Notices
Road Cycling It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle. -- Ernest Hemingway

what's so great about lugs?

Old 12-24-07, 12:40 PM
  #26  
fogrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: fogtown...san francisco
Posts: 2,276

Bikes: Ron Cooper, Time VXSR, rock lobster, rock lobster, serotta, ritchey, kestrel, paramount

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
to answer the question, lugs allow lower heat. this is important in when steel would become very weak with the higher temps of welding. the lugs also reinforce the area of the connection. many tig welded tubes are double butted tubes to bring the weight down. I don't want to get into what is better...
fogrider is offline  
Old 12-24-07, 01:05 PM
  #27  
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 3,042

Bikes: Homebuilt steel

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2009 Post(s)
Liked 390 Times in 308 Posts
Have to agree with Botto on this one, lugs are about the "look".

Brazing is performed at lower temperature than welding (TIG) but modern tubes don't care either way so this is not relevant unless you are using an old tubeset like 753.

Lugged frame repair is more difficult than TIG repair because of the nature of the lugged socket - more of the frame must be pulled apart before the new tube can fit in.

Lugs can be bent so as to accommodate a fairly wide range of angles. It's more work to do this type of adjustment thus lugged frames are more labor intensive, thus the higher price.
Nessism is offline  
Old 12-24-07, 01:14 PM
  #28  
botto 
.
 
botto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 40,375
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 25 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by operator View Post
Fail
wrong thread.
botto is offline  
Old 12-24-07, 04:23 PM
  #29  
schnee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tinrobot View Post
I'd imagine that, using the same tubes, lugged frames would be slightly heavier than TIG-welded because the area around the lugs has some areas of double thickness.
It didn't used to be that way. Early on, the steel used lost a lot of tensile strength when heated, and since brazing requires far lower temperatures than welding, the tubes and butting could be a lot thinner on lugged frames. Steel has come a long way since then though, so the differences aren't nearly as pronounced.
schnee is offline  
Old 12-24-07, 06:10 PM
  #30  
bbattle
.
 
bbattle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rocket City, No'ala
Posts: 12,760

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times in 11 Posts
Links to lovely lugness:

https://bikeforums.net/showthread.php...highlight=lugs

https://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=358074

https://bikeforums.net/showthread.php...highlight=lugs


Freakin' Sweet Hetchins Lugs
https://www.hetchins.org/504xc1.htm
bbattle is offline  
Old 12-24-07, 06:11 PM
  #31  
bbattle
.
 
bbattle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rocket City, No'ala
Posts: 12,760

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times in 11 Posts
carbon tubing with titanium lugs

bbattle is offline  
Old 12-24-07, 07:40 PM
  #32  
Mooo
I am the Eggman
 
Mooo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 723
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by schnee View Post
It didn't used to be that way. Early on, the steel used lost a lot of tensile strength when heated, and since brazing requires far lower temperatures than welding, the tubes and butting could be a lot thinner on lugged frames. Steel has come a long way since then though, so the differences aren't nearly as pronounced.
Umm, 4130 is still 4130. And has been since at least the 20's or 30's. You can get it lugged or welded today. For that matter, weren't the penny farthings welded?

Reynolds 531, OTOH, I understand did not lend itself well to welding.

But... Pretty sure the answer is economics. If you can source 3 welded frame sizes to fit the biggest chunk of the market, and get some differentiation by using a slightly different size tube, why go lugged? Large diameter tubes are what people expect from a road bike. Sloping top tubes too. Part of the side benefit is disposable components. If there is no standard size of anything to bolt to, derailleurs, shifters, and other components can be changed more easily year to year forcing the old stuff to be dumped. Solves lots of problems.

I'll betcha low spoke count wheels have an origin in economics too ("if we can save $0.75 cost in spokes on say 200,000 wheels a year and the quality doesn't totally tank, isn't that good enough?").
Mooo is offline  
Old 12-24-07, 09:05 PM
  #33  
schnee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mooo View Post
Umm, 4130 is still 4130. And has been since at least the 20's or 30's. You can get it lugged or welded today. For that matter, weren't the penny farthings welded?
You're absolutely correct, but completely missing my point. The original statement was about weight. All I'm saying is that lugged bikes are not necessarily heavier due to other factors. Here's a link that explains it better than I did.

On lugged bikes, silver brazing, due to its lower heat requirements was a superior method of fabrication for both styles, though silver was less often used on mass produced bikes due to its expense. From that position, a silver brazed lugged bike would be superior to a brass-brazed bike and the joining method is inconsequential if properly performed (with air hardening tube sets, this is not always true). With today's heat resistant tube sets, it's not such a concern as long as the builder matches his tube selection to the joining technique. Overheating is still a bad thing, but the tube sets are more tolerant and most modern steel tube sets are designed with Tig welding in mind.
schnee is offline  
Old 12-24-07, 10:19 PM
  #34  
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 3,042

Bikes: Homebuilt steel

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2009 Post(s)
Liked 390 Times in 308 Posts
The lightest steel frames are TIG'ed since they use killer thin, super large diameter tubes for which lugs are not available - S3 and EOM16.5 for example.

If we are talking about apples to apples such as to compare regular OS tubed frames both with lugs and without, the lugged frame will be slightly heavier. There is just no getting away from the fact that the lugs have metal in them. One good offset in favor of lugs is that the head tube can be thinner and there is no need for a collar or butted seat tube with extra thickness at the top (which is typically used for TIG frames).

Don't get me wrong, I like lugs and my frames have them. I couldn't care less if the frame is 100 grams heavier, since I like they way they look.
Nessism is offline  
Old 12-24-07, 10:23 PM
  #35  
ridethecliche
Batw Creakcreak
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The illadelph
Posts: 20,756
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 273 Times in 150 Posts
Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
The lightest steel frames are TIG'ed since they use killer thin, super large diameter tubes for which lugs are not available - S3 and EOM16.5 for example.

If we are talking about apples to apples such as to compare regular OS tubed frames both with lugs and without, the lugged frame will be slightly heavier. There is just no getting away from the fact that the lugs have metal in them. One good offset in favor of lugs is that the head tube can be thinner and there is no need for a collar or butted seat tube with extra thickness at the top (which is typically used for TIG frames).

Don't get me wrong, I like lugs and my frames have them. I couldn't care less if the frame is 100 grams heavier, since I like they way they look.
The peugeot ph501 I just sold had a 59 cm top tube and it was still lighter than the trek 760 I just bought that's a size 56cm top tube.
The lugs are sweet though
ridethecliche is offline  
Old 12-25-07, 09:54 AM
  #36  
kill.cactus
500 Watts
 
kill.cactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 833

Bikes: Trek 7200 FX ('05), Trek 6000 ('07)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
HAHAHA

I thought the title of the thread was "what's so great about lungs"
kill.cactus is offline  
Old 12-25-07, 06:51 PM
  #37  
Mooo
I am the Eggman
 
Mooo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 723
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by schnee View Post
You're absolutely correct, but completely missing my point. The original statement was about weight. All I'm saying is that lugged bikes are not necessarily heavier due to other factors. Here's a link that explains it better than I did.
You are absolutely correct; I completely missed your point. Oh well
Mooo is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.