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tubular gluing debacle

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tubular gluing debacle

Old 01-04-08, 10:21 PM
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tubular gluing debacle

tried gluing pair of tubulars for the first time last week. used mastik one.

Followed the fairly well publicized procedure of

1. thin coat on rim (alu), wait 24h
2. coat on tire, cure for 24h
3. 2nd coat on rim, cure for 12+h
4. mounting coat on rim, when tacky, mount tire.
5. inflate, seat tire, roll with pressure to set, let cure 24h.

glue never got tacky for 3rd rim coat. after application, was not sticky at all! mounting tire resulted in obviously way weak bond. One tube of mastik is supposed to be good for 2 tires? It took 2 tubes to get the coverage above + and extra coat on one tire which finally worked, sort of - for that one tire i got a good sticky bond but i don't trust it because removing that tire from the first mounting took off patches of glue from the rim.

Now I've got an additional 5 tubes, ready for a second try. Any recommendations?

Thanks...
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Old 01-04-08, 10:26 PM
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Look up Lennard Zinn's gluing method. It always worked for me. Or try the tape. I've only used it once but it was quick and simple.
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Old 01-04-08, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wonderboy
tried gluing pair of tubulars for the first time last week. used mastik one.

Followed the fairly well publicized procedure of

1. thin coat on rim (alu), wait 24h
2. coat on tire, cure for 24h
3. 2nd coat on rim, cure for 12+h
4. mounting coat on rim, when tacky, mount tire.
5. inflate, seat tire, roll with pressure to set, let cure 24h.

glue never got tacky for 3rd rim coat. after application, was not sticky at all! mounting tire resulted in obviously way weak bond. One tube of mastik is supposed to be good for 2 tires? It took 2 tubes to get the coverage above + and extra coat on one tire which finally worked, sort of - for that one tire i got a good sticky bond but i don't trust it because removing that tire from the first mounting took off patches of glue from the rim.

Now I've got an additional 5 tubes, ready for a second try. Any recommendations?

Thanks...
Wonder, you're definitely using too much glue, but without more details I can't say how that happenned. Just remove the tire, let everything dry well, and try again.

The Zinn procedure has you put a thin bead on the rim, put your hand in a baggie and spread each coat using your finger. When you are done with the baggie pull it off inside out and toss it, to contain the mess. Take it as a challenge to see how little you can get away with.

I've found when I remove the tire, even very good tire-rim bonds can pull glue away from the rim. This is not a problem. As long as the remaining glue is also not too bunchy or lumpy, attempting to re-mount the tire with a new gluing cycle is also not a problem.

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Old 01-04-08, 11:33 PM
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tufo extreme tape takes about 10mins the first time
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Old 01-04-08, 11:49 PM
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I agree the OP is using too much glue. This will result in a weaker bond and increase hysterisis (higher rolling resistance).

1 tube of mastique should do 2 wheels if you already have some glue on the rims. For new rims and tires sometimes 1 wheel will use most of a small tube.

Try for a thin, even coat on the rim and on the base tape of the tire. The baggie trick is good. You don't have to wait 12-24 hr for the mastique to get tacky, 20-30 mins should do. Then put a very thin bead of glue on the rim's midline and mount your pre-stretched tire (this is the key part of not making a mess). Quickly center your tire on a trueing stand with the tire at 40-50 psi. Inflate to 120 psi and and roll tire on the ground with your full weight pushing down on the hub skewers to fully seat the tire to the rim.

Clean off any excess glue from the sides of the basetape after it has hardened the next day and wait 12-24 hrs before riding.

Enjoy the best riding type of tire for a bike!
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Old 01-04-08, 11:54 PM
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Well this thread has taught me something: Don't use Mastik One

Clement or Continental glue was easy with the Zinn method, and ready to ride in 24h.
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Old 01-05-08, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
Wonder, you're definitely using too much glue,
+1 - my thoughts exactly. If it's not drying/tacky then you're most likely using way too much glue.
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Old 01-05-08, 01:22 AM
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My procedure has worked equally well with all the different glues I've used so far.

1. thin layer of glue on rim
2. thin layer of glue on tire
3. second thin layer of glue on tire about 15 min. later.
wait another 10 min.
4. put tire on.
5. inflate and let dry overnight (at least 12 hours)
6. ride and ride some more!!
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Old 01-05-08, 01:32 AM
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I must use too much because by the time I put one layer on both tires and both rims the tube is empty.
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Old 01-05-08, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by kleng
tufo extreme tape takes about 10mins the first time
+1 Tufo Tape works great! Never had a problem.
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Old 01-05-08, 03:30 AM
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I used glue but once I discovered Tufo Extreme tape it was a no brainer to switch. no noticeable difference in performance and can ride .1 sec after install is complete. rumors of extreme tape pulling out the rim bed are false. and reynolds actually recommends the use of the tape.

i use it now on both my carbon and aluminum wheels.

Last edited by vic32amg; 01-05-08 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 01-05-08, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight
Well this thread has taught me something: Don't use Mastik One

Clement or Continental glue was easy with the Zinn method, and ready to ride in 24h.
Huh? Mastik One is much better than Clement. and recommended almost universally. Continental does suggest you only use their glue on their tires, but I have used Mastik One with equal success.
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Old 01-05-08, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by wonderboy
tried gluing pair of tubulars for the first time last week. used mastik one.

Followed the fairly well publicized procedure of

1. thin coat on rim (alu), wait 24h
2. coat on tire, cure for 24h
3. 2nd coat on rim, cure for 12+h
4. mounting coat on rim, when tacky, mount tire.
5. inflate, seat tire, roll with pressure to set, let cure 24h.

glue never got tacky for 3rd rim coat. after application, was not sticky at all! mounting tire resulted in obviously way weak bond. One tube of mastik is supposed to be good for 2 tires? It took 2 tubes to get the coverage above + and extra coat on one tire which finally worked, sort of - for that one tire i got a good sticky bond but i don't trust it because removing that tire from the first mounting took off patches of glue from the rim.

Now I've got an additional 5 tubes, ready for a second try. Any recommendations?

Thanks...
Nothing wrong with the procedure, just maybe some details that weren't apparent...

All rim cements separate. I get Mastic one in a can, so before I apply it I stir it with a Popsicle stick, with the tubes you can squeeze it around a bit, but I don't know how well that works... If it separated, it won't get 'tacky'...

"One coat on the tire"... If you haven't gotten the cloth base tape filled it tends to absorb a lot of glue... You have to put air in the tire to get the base tape to 'open up' a bit so that you can get enough glue in...

"i don't trust it because removing that tire from the first mounting took off patches of glue from the rim."
If the glue came off of the rim cleanly it was because the rim wasn't clean there, could've been as little as a sweaty thumb print, but trust me, if the rim is clean when you put the glue on it's going to take a _LOT_ to get it off the rim...

Nobody gets this right on the first try, and taking the tire back off is probably the best way to check your work until you feel confident that you have the process down. It's difficult to get a thin layer of glue to bond a tire edge to edge, it takes practice. When you pull the tire off, you should see that the glue has remained on the rim, without any 'patches' of clean rim visible. When you look at the tire you just took off you shouldn't see any 'dry' spots where the glue didn't get all the way into the base tape. Basically you have a good bond to the rim, and a good bond to the tire, you've removed the tire by 'fracturing' the glue. This where the glue thickness comes in, the least that you can use and accomplish the tire and rim bonds the better.

I'm sorry if this sound too basic, but when I started gluing tires (back in the 70's, a little before the internet...) it was next to impossible to get 'the big picture', and everyone seemed to have their own 'VooDoo'. Keep at it, it just takes a little practice, then it's easy and you'll be laughing at all those people who are afraid of tubulars because of the hassle...

I hope this helps,
Dave

Last edited by dsb137; 01-05-08 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 01-05-08, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by wonderboy
tried gluing pair of tubulars for the first time last week. used mastik one.

Followed the fairly well publicized procedure of

1. thin coat on rim (alu), wait 24h
2. coat on tire, cure for 24h
3. 2nd coat on rim, cure for 12+h
4. mounting coat on rim, when tacky, mount tire.
5. inflate, seat tire, roll with pressure to set, let cure 24h.

glue never got tacky for 3rd rim coat. after application, was not sticky at all! mounting tire resulted in obviously way weak bond. One tube of mastik is supposed to be good for 2 tires? It took 2 tubes to get the coverage above + and extra coat on one tire which finally worked, sort of - for that one tire i got a good sticky bond but i don't trust it because removing that tire from the first mounting took off patches of glue from the rim.

Now I've got an additional 5 tubes, ready for a second try. Any recommendations?

Thanks...
Don't feel bad. First time I tried it, my elbow was stuck to my ear for a week.
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Old 01-05-08, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by king-tony
Don't feel bad. First time I tried it, my elbow was stuck to my ear for a week.

Didn't I see you in a bike shop in Chicago in 1971?

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Old 01-06-08, 09:05 PM
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thanks to all who have responded. at this time i don't want to use tape, I'm committed to the glue approach.

when I say the mounting coat was not tacky, I mean that by the time I had gone all the way around the rim applying, the glue was not even sticky - a latex gloved finger put on the rim pulled away with no stickage.

the glue seemed to "harden" very fast.

anyway, I'm using the procedure outlined at:
www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/bicycle/

Look at those resources - i don't think you'll find anyone who's studied tubular mounting more intensely and scientifically, and there results speak to superior bonds via the method i used, and with mastik one.

perhaps their method requires more glue? also bear in mind i was starting from scratch with no glue on either rims or tires.

do i remove glue from rims before my next try or just work from here?
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Old 01-06-08, 09:17 PM
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Why do I get the feeling we'll be seeing a bunch more of these threads when the wheels from the group buy come in?
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Old 01-06-08, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bike Lover
Why do I get the feeling we'll be seeing a bunch more of these threads when the wheels from the group buy come in?
Either that or a bunch will show up on eBay or craigslist.
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Old 01-06-08, 10:52 PM
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I think the tape stinks, any time you save on the initial tire application is lost when it is time to put a new tire on. The tape is also not well suited to all types of base tapes.

The baggy is ok but I don't know that I see the point. Before I put the glue on I put some goof off on a rag and set it aside. Then I just use my pointer finger to spread on the glue, its just the right size for the rim bed, I wipe off with the rag, wash my hands and I am done. The goof off on the rag will also make it easy to wipe any excess glue off the wheel.

For those that want some written directions go to the Zipp website and look at the electronic copy of the manual that comes with their wheels. The method is pretty much what has been stated here in previous post but I thought it was clearly written and its also where I got the idea for the Goof Off cleaner (safe for carbon fiber), which is a great way to clean things up.
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Old 01-07-08, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by wonderboy
thanks to all who have responded. at this time i don't want to use tape, I'm committed to the glue approach.

when I say the mounting coat was not tacky, I mean that by the time I had gone all the way around the rim applying, the glue was not even sticky - a latex gloved finger put on the rim pulled away with no stickage.

the glue seemed to "harden" very fast.
This maybe a case of the glue separating, the 'medium' the 'glue' is in will go on with a wet look but then will 'flash' off very quickly. If the 'glue' part isn't mixed in well then there is none left behind and no 'tackiness'... In the past I have mounted the tire without a 'wet mount coat' and then gone around and brushed glue on the rim a couple inches at a time by rolling the tire back to get underneath... Tedious, but effective...

Originally Posted by wonderboy
anyway, I'm using the procedure outlined at:
www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/bicycle/

Look at those resources - i don't think you'll find anyone who's studied tubular mounting more intensely and scientifically, and there results speak to superior bonds via the method i used, and with mastik one.

perhaps their method requires more glue? also bear in mind i was starting from scratch with no glue on either rims or tires.
Perhaps more on the base tape of a virgin tire... But in my experience, thinner coats on the rim are better...

Originally Posted by wonderboy
do i remove glue from rims before my next try or just work from here?
If you have glue pulling cleanly off the rim I would suggest removing all the glue and starting over, the glue coming off cleanly suggests that the rim wasn't clean enough to begin with and it's likely that the bond is weaker than it could be...
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Old 01-07-08, 08:51 AM
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Used glue for years but will give Tufo tape a go this season. Several team members used it last year with no issues.
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Old 01-07-08, 08:59 AM
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There are some good tips here from some folks who have
been riding tubulars since the 70's or earlier.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/154679-totally-tubular.html

Mastik? Never use the stuff. I prefer Panaracer panacement but if I
can't get that continental is my choice.

As for the Tufo tape, make sure you don't use the standard tape, it creates
a sticky, gooey mess that oozes out from under tires in moderate heat, and is a major
pain to remove from rims/tires.

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Old 01-07-08, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by WheresWaldo
Huh? Mastik One is much better than Clement. and recommended almost universally. Continental does suggest you only use their glue on their tires, but I have used Mastik One with equal success.
I like Mastik One a lot, but Clement is definitely easier for the first-time tire gluer. It takes longer to set up, giving you more time to get the tire centered.

Once the downside, I've got lots of t-shirts with red glue stains all over them. That stuff never comes out.
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Old 01-10-08, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bike Lover
Why do I get the feeling we'll be seeing a bunch more of these threads when the wheels from the group buy come in?
perhaps you "should be riding" rather than posting - what's the point of this forum if not for questions and answers?

Maybe if you see those posts, you can respond with a link to this post, rather than providing the poster with any information. just like you did this time!
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Old 01-10-08, 09:22 PM
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This forum is for *****ing at others and all around negative posts not Q&A. Dont spoil our fun.
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