Renault78law

Given that I'm soon to do a race with a very technical descent, the issue of cornering is on the brain at the moment. I know that most experts recommend countersteering...and that's what I've been practicing. However, I just bought the 2003 tour de france, and noticed that the "best descenders" (as stated by the commentators) don't countersteer. They lean in, sticking their inside knee out, similar to what motorcyclists do - the very opposite of what countersteering is. In fact, I was hard pressed to find any in the peloton countersteering on those sharp steep curves. What gives? Is does countersteering provide theoretical advantages, whereas in real life, the other way is faster? Or is it that stubborn riders, set in their ways don't want to learn a new way to turn?

petersta

I have ridden and raced motorcycles for years and I can guarentee you that every motorcyclist on any race track will be using countersteering to iinitiate the turn in on any corner, there is simply no faster way to get a 350lb bike travelling at speeds often in triple digits to turn. Don't confuse lean angle and knee dragging with counter steering.

for the most comprehensive analysis of motorbike steering check out keith codes books, or check out his california superbike school website.

Peter

sscyco

I take high-speed corners with my inside knee out, a hard lean, and I counter steer. I think you may be confused with what a counter steer is. My quick explanation: while initiating a turn, apply pressure to the side of the handle bar that is on the inside of the turn, essentially turning the opposite way of the turn. This will drop the bike into the turn - keep applying pressure as the radius of the turn decreases. This will force the proper lean angle.

Davet

Like Renault78law said; countersteering is not about bike lean, it's about pulling on the opposite (from the direction you want to go) handlebar to initiate the turn. So if you want to turn left, pull gently on the right bar. Or you could push on the left bar, same result. Gently is the keyword, and it takes plenty of practice, practice, practice.

Rev.Chuck

If you go thru the turn at high speed, you (from what I have read) have to counter steer, the physics of a two wheeled machine. For me it is something you do more than think about.

Renault78law

Hrm...ok, maybe I don't know what countersteering really is...perhaps someone can help clear this up? Here is my understanding based on past internet research:
1) Stand.
2) Apply a lot of pressure to the outside pedal which should be down.
3) As you come into the turn, pull with the inside hand.
4) Inside knee should be in, pushing against the frame, not hanging out.
5) The bike should lean into the turn while the rider remains relatively upright.

I think I remember all this stuff from an article that someone posted on this site...
Help?

~LongRider~

Countersteering, is pushing on the inside bar, instead of pulling on it. Countersteering is something virtually everyone does subconsciously. As you lean into a turn, it is the natural tendency to push on the inside bar, to support your weight. Some people say to pull on the outside bar, but I find it much more stable to push on the inside one. Once you become good at it, you have alot more control while turning. You can changer your line with very minor movements. ALL motorcycle racers countersteer. It doesnt matter if you put your knee out or not. That has no bearing on the turn. Pro motorcycle racers put their knees out to help judge the lean of the bike. They will actually touch their knees to the road, for extra support. I have actually seen riders touch down elbows in pictures. You wont be leaning far enough on a bicycle to touch a knee down.

Don Cook

At speeds low enough that the effects of centrifigal force don't come into play, we turn a motorcycle or bicycle wheel in the direction that we wish to travel. When riding a motorcycle through a parking lot at 5-8 mph, I'm not countersteering. Even at 20mph I can steer in the direction that I wish to go if I also add a little bit of lean. If I tried countersteering at these speeds, I'd fall over. At higher speeds, when centrifigal force becomes a bigger factor, if the wheel is turned in the direction I want to go, I would be thrown from the bike to the outside of the turn. What I do instead is countersteer while leaning to the inside of the turn. Basically, I'm putting the motorcycle into a fall towards the inside of the turn, while centrifigal force is holding it up. The balance of all elements in this case is very important. The grip of the tyre, how much countersteer, how much body lean, and of course how much centrifigal force is generated will determine the maximum speed at which I can get through a corner. At one extreme, the fall angle of the bike and body lean (to the inside of the curve) is so severe that it exceeds the tyre grip and I go down in a lowside slide. The other extreme, is that the centrifical force to the outside of the curve exceeds the fall angle and body lean that I'm using for the curve and the bike and I run off the road to the outside of the curve.

khackney

Well... try this. Picture a bicycle moving straight down the road with the rider directly centered on the bike. If the rider steers the tires to the right but does not allow his head to move farther to the right the bike is now leaning left. Countersteering is using the leverage of the tire contact patch to force the bike or motorcycle to lean in the desired direction. Kind of like powersteering for two wheels. If you don't coutersteer, you rely solely on your shifting weight to overcome the gyroscopic effect of the two spinning wheels. On a motorcycle with relatively heavy tire/wheel weight the bike will literally fight you if you don't coutersteer.

With practice you start the lean by countersteering and then catch the amount of lean and hold it by decreasing the counter pressure. Remember, with the light weight of a bicycle these moves are pretty subtle. You don't want to "whip" right and then go left.

~LongRider~

Star motorcycle school, has a motorcycle that will not steer with the handle bars. They are locked straight ahead. It is to prove to the riders, that leaning doesnt have the effect on turning, that people think it does. They make you try to turn it with only leaning. It wont. It is to prove the power of countersteering to the students.

ImprezaDrvr

Centrifugal force does not exist. It's a name that someone started applying to a bunch of physical forces that come into play with rotational dynamics. Kind of like the word "ain't", though, it's become accepted.

~LongRider~

Here's a pic of a near elbow touch. It is a pic of Eric Bostrom. He can ride a bike past its limits better than anyone in the world.

ImprezaDrvr

Those guys are incredible. People watch NASCAR for the crashes, I watch superbike for the bike handling. Insane.

petersta

Not to get too argumentative, but Eric isn't in the same league as Rossi and a couple of the other GP racers The control that Rossi has on bike is beyond incredible.

Peter

~LongRider~

Rossi is on the best motorcycle in the world. Eric is (was) riding a 10 year old ZX7rr. He was still winning races, on an outdated machine. Rossi,,,,, is the best rider of our century. He is a once in a lifetime rider. We are lucky to have seen him in his prime. Bostrom,,,, can bleed more out of an inadequate machine. Me thinks, anyway.

Dchiefransom

It's a layman's term to get people to understand the concept, without having to go into detail above their heads. You can teach young students about centrifugal force, but try explaining it to them as an infinite number of inertial vectors. In nuclear physics, we are taught things up through high school that will be corrected later when we move to the next higher level.

Laggard

Having done many road races but no crits and having undoubtably countersteered on a number of occasions, I'm confused by some contradictory info on this thread.

Simple question: On a right turn, do you push on the right or left bar?

Bluechip

On a right turn you push on the right bar or pull on the left (which ever way is easier to copmprehend). You do it without thinking about it any time you have any kind of forward momentum. It's the only way to turn. It's what sets up the lean angle. The harder you push the more severe the lean angle will be. Once leaned over you continue to push on the bar to increase lean angle or push on the other bar to come out of the lean or decrease the lean angle.

Roy Gardiner

Well I'm completely baffled by this; but I have a personal, close interest having decked myself earlier this year in a crit whilst cornering.

1. I've never seen anyone corner standing out of the saddle.
2. Assuming a left turn: If you apply pressure to the right pedal this causes the bike to move to the right, i.e. to become more upright; the body must lean into the corner (to the left in this case) to counterbalance. This seems reasonable to me.
3. No comment
4. The opposite of what I do.
5 The opposite again, and counter to what (2) does.

I have never seen a picture of a *road* cyclist cornering at high speed with the body relatively more upright than the bike as point (5) says; can anyone post one? All the pros seem to so is (sometimes) stick their knees out into the corner and keep the bike and body in line. Smoothness seems to be the watchword - they don't look like they're going fast (!!). Note that in the (wonderful) motorcyle pic earlier the rider is leaning into the corner, is less upright than the bike, which is what I would expect for our slow ones too.

The best tubular tyres for cornering?

bac

I think the question that Renault is trying to ask is – “Do you point your inside knee down/out while counter-steering?” Most all sources (for cycling - not motorcycles!) recommend putting your inside knee up against the top-tube while counter-steering in an effort to stabilize and feel the bike through the turn. This is the "new school" approach. This position feels odd to me, and I still point my knee out/down. However, I’d like to try what the experts are preaching.

Does anyone counter-steer with their inside knee against the top-tube. If so, what are your impressions???

ThanX!

Roy Gardiner

Maybe the pros don't read the same books we do?
I'm with you, I've *never* seen countersteering - maybe the effect is so subtle it can't be seen?
Have you a URL you can post describing countersteering, maybe with some pix?

chewa

I'm sorry, but the only way you can get a bike to turn at anything other than a low speed is to countersteer. If you try to turn the bars right to turn right at anyspeed above walking pace, you'll end up falling off or going left.

When the pros are turning left they initially push on the left bar which enhances the lean.

If you've ever tried to turn a motorbike with squared off tyres you'll know that countersteering is essential (and you have to push hard)

On a push bike the effect is subtle, but if you read Richards bicycle book, he advocates a rapid countersteer to drop the bike into a steep turn to avoid accidents

Laggard

Roy: I had the same thoughts while reading the 5 points that Renault posted. The image of a rider standing while maintaining an upright position in a corner struck me as odd also.

1) Stand. - No. A lower center of gravity is preferable. Which is why you'll see a lot of riders hunch down even further while cornering.

2) Apply a lot of pressure to the outside pedal which should be down. - I don't know why you'd apply any pressure to the a pedal in a turn. Also, to prevent the pedal from hitting the ground, the inside pedal should be up.

3) As you come into the turn, pull with the inside hand. - no comment

4) Inside knee should be in, pushing against the frame, not hanging out. ?

5) The bike should lean into the turn while the rider remains relatively upright. - rider and bike should be parallel.

~LongRider~

To turn well, you need to initiate the turn with countersteering, and lean. Once the motorcycle is off center, the turn is automatic because of the smaller diameter of the outside edge of the tire. It is not necessary to put your knee out or down. It is best to shift your body weight to the inside of the turn. This keeps your weight from fighting the automatic geometry of the motorcycle. Without countersteering and lean, a motorcycle will automatically correct itself to a straight track. Mike Hailwood was one example of a great road racer, that did not put a knee down. He did use body weight to turn, though. Here is a picture of his style. There is only one way to turn a motorcycle at fast speeds, and that is by countersteering. Some people use different braking techniques to corner quicker, but they all turn the same way.

Bluechip

I think some are confusing counter steering with what seems more like a form of counter balanceing.