Joe I

I currently own a 52 cm fuji professional road frame (2005 model), The Main frame is a Monoque High Modulus C-7 carbon with custom weave carbon strands and Integrated aluminum cupped head tube.

The rear triangle is also High Modulus C-7 carbon stays with cold forged dropouts and replaceable hanger.

I am using an Alpha Q Gs10 fork on the front.

I finished out the bike with durace driveline and brake components, fsa carbon compact crank,fsa carbon seatpost, Fsa carbon K wing bar and stem, and a carbon tubular wheelset. The bike wieghs in at just under 16 lbs with pedals and cycle computer.

I am an avid recreational rider, and generally do lots of 30 to 60 mile rides.

I am thinking about replacing the frame with a Cervello R3 or an Ibis silk road frame.
My goal is to develop a 15 lb machine.
Would I gain significant wieght savings with either one? Would I notice a better ride?

While Fuji is considered to be a value priced, off the shelf mass producer, This was there best frame offering in 2005. Also, Toyota United is using this same frame right now. What makes these other frame builders so much better? Is it higher quality matieral?, geometry, stiffness? or are they really pretty similar?

The Ibis silk frame is a great price for the money, but only worth upgrading to me if there is an appreciable difference from the fuji.

pseudobrit

You can get just about any 52cm frame to sub 15 with proper component choices. Just as a heads-up, FSA is known for underlisting the weights on their stuff, sometimes by quite a lot.

you can start here: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings.php

Never know until you try it. There are way too many variables at play here, including your idea of "better".

waterrockets 

The biggest variable to ride quality is tire selection and tire pressure. Without spending a LOT of money, you're not going to be able to shed more than 1/4 - 1/2 lb. off that frame.

I've said it before, but: Buying bike parts is a completely separate hobby from riding bikes, and the two are very loosely coupled. I have a great experience riding and racing on my 8-year-old frame. I'm just not into the buying hobby, and I've detached my emotions from the gear enough that I don't let myths and 3 lbs of extra bike weight bother me.

Getting a more expensive frame will not make you a better rider. Nothing wrong with a nicer frame and a nicer bike, but it doesn't have much impact on the riding part of the sport.

Joe I

Thank you for the website!

hos13

I asked about this in the 7lb bike thread about the weight of air, I was unaware the psi added lbs. Is there a formula that you use to figure out how much psi adds in lbs. I'm not to worried about the weight of my bike of the rotation mass of my wheels. I just find this interesting, thats all.

SoreFeet

If you want to save weight and feel a difference then you should go with a tubular rim combination. The tires will be a pain in the butt but the ride quality will be different. You might like it better.

michaelmc

+1. Many many people ride and love their Fujis, despite the fact that they currently have less prestige behind their name than many other brands. They're fine frames that can be and are raced professionally, period, and if yours fits and you like riding it, then buying something else isn't going to scratch the itch you have.

GlassWolf

to nswer the topic Q strictly speaking, and not regarding cervelo vs fuji specifically, I'll say that the differences can be vast. CF is hand laid, and much like a piece of art, can vary greatly in how it's made. Number of layers used throughout the frame and fork, including if more layers are applied at high stress points, the quality or type of CF used, is it laid in multiple directions, and even things as basic as the frame's geometry can make the difference between a smooth, stiff ride with no BB flex and good road feel, or a bike that feels like it was made from recycled happy meal toys.

a lot of generic no-name frames from places like eBay can fall into the latter catagory, which is why riding a CF bike is really the best way to know if its the right bike for you.
failing that, at least look for good reviews of the bike, from professionals and not just the typical amazon user-reviews.

Joe I

Thank you for the reality check. As far as wheel sets and tires,
I run two wheel sets, depending upon my mood,
FSA RD600 clinchers with Conti GP 4000 tires. I usually run 110 psi. ( I wiegh 170 lbs)
posted wheel set wieght is 1580 grams (minus skewers of course)


or I run American Classic carbon tubulars, 38mm depth, with continental gator skin tubulars. I usually run 110 to 120 psi. Posted wheel set wieght is 1250 grams + ti skewers.

While running lower psi may make the ride more comfortable, (I'm pretty comfortable on the bike now)
Would more psi in the tubulars give me a faster ride?

GlassWolf

oh, also for what it's worth, Fuji owns Kestrel now too, whom I consider to be one of the best names in carbon fiber framework.

jrennie

The biggest variable in frames is the material used and application. Carbon fiber is not all the same. There are many different grades and lay up techniques. This is why just because a taiwan frame looks just like a giant or le roi(just examples) it isn't the same frame. Frame builders ofter sell there molds after they are done with them but the new user can change the feel of the frame quite significantly by using a fiber with different properties.
Here is a graph of just some of the offerings from one mfg.(from Pez)

jrennie

I very much disagree. While the bike has very little to do with how much or how long you can accelerate the frame the quality and handling characteristics of that frame have a huge impact on the ride/raceability of it. Have you ever been behind someone on a decent that gets a speed wobble? Ever tried to crit on a mtn bike with slicks? If you are racing there are purpose built bike that DO help you go faster. They do not help you pedal faster but cornering, descending and aerodynamics are a big part of riding. With just a few extra watts saved from equipment you might have been able to sit on RacerEx a little longer and made the break stick.

Joe I

thank you for the carbon filament comparison chart.

GatorFL

PV=nRT

Bacciagalupe

I think his point is that if the geometry / rider setup are essentially the same, you will have the same performance on a $1000 road bike as a $3000 or $6000 road bike.

I'd add that unless you are doing Cat1 or pro races, the performance difference that would result from dropping 1 pound from the frame is almost non-existent. For example, do you really feel like your bike performs better with an empty water bottle than with a full bottle?

Geometry, however, can make a difference in terms of ride feel. Is the Fuji too twitchy? Or is it too stable? Is the ride too harsh? Do you feel cramped or too stretched out?

I.e., if the Fuji doesn't feel right, and you can't tweak it to feel right (e.g. different tires, different saddle, different position) then I'd figure out what needs to change, and find a frame that suits the preferred changes.

BikeWNC

A 16 lb bike is already very light. Many pros ride bikes that are heavier than that. Tom Boonen's bike for example weighs around 17.25 lbs. It seems that having an ultralight bike is about bragging rights and less about performance. On the other hand, each frame imparts a unique ride when paired with similar components. Problem is, it is often hard to find bikes that are setup the same for fair comparisons. Find one you like and just ride it.

ravenmore

As jrennie mentioned with carbon frames there can be a big difference in carbon layup. Giant spent a ton of money developing their Formula1 process for example. You could have another bike made from the same mold but have the carbon applied differently and it would have totally different characteristics even though it might look identical.

GlassWolf

the big difference comes in riding centuries and such. a poorly made frame can beat you to death making the ride very unpleasant, whereas a good bike can make it feel like riding on air.

waterrockets 

I think you misunderstood my statement. The OP is not riding a mountain bike with slicks, he's riding a road racing bike, and he's looking at more expensive race bikes. I wasn't making a generalization that nobody will see much improvement between two bikes. I'm saying that Joe I will not see much improvement between his current bike and, well any other racing bike.

Regarding my failed attempt to contribute (what was I thinking) to a breakaway w/Racer_EX:
-I averaged 320W for that break at 20.3mph
-Using kreuzotter with that speed and power, I get a 1.5% incline (sounds about right for the average on that half of the course). That's with my 19 lb bike.
-So, I took Racer_Ex's 13 lb bike and figured out what wattage I would have needed, and came up with 317W. RX's bike might be 12 lb, but if it was built for me, at 6'4"/178 lbs, I think even 13 lbs would be wishful thinking.

Ok, so I would have needed 3W less power during the break. I honestly don't think I was w/in 1% of surviving, but say I was. That would have had me sprinting for 14th place instead of 15th place in a local road race, in the M35+ category. Is that prize worth an extra $7500 in bicycle? (assuming the appropriately appointed Addict costs $10,000).

Since I've acquired my PowerTap, my threshold power has been going up by 5%/month. I'm saving myself like $50,000/month with one single $680 purchase!



I think we can browse back through the training status thread and find RX's FTP in there somewhere, then look at my FTP of 4.26W/kg, and we'll see why I couldn't hang with him. Throw in another 1% for the rig -- he deserves it.

waterrockets 

No, you mis-read me there. I'm saying that the ride characteristics are often more affected by tire pressure than frame design (assuming similar geometry and intended use). The air may weigh an ounce or two.

ericcox

Now, Waterrocekts, what if your BB wasn't flexing all the way across Travis County. How many watts saved then?

A while back I settled on the notion that the only real justification for a pretty new bike was that I wanted a pretty new bike. The 1/2 justification was that I was about to spend quite a bit of money replacing worn out bits on my old bike, so why not just get a pretty new one?

Incidentally, the old bike was a steel fuji that I still kick myself for having sold.

waterrockets 

I use that property to clear people off of any wheel I'm trying steal a wheel. It's a wash as far as efficiency goes.

Man, you wouldn't have believed how hot my BB shell was after the final sprint!

maddog17

look how big Boonen is and how he sprints. i would expect him to snap a frame that's lighter.

powpow

Seems like a generalization. Judging by your authoritative posts, I assume you know what you are talking about. But, if you've been proudly riding your "heavier" bike for the past 8 years, how do you know that getting a high-end bike won't help this you (or the OP) get faster?

BTW, I'm no weight weenie: my roadie weight 19.5 and my MTB weighs 28.

waterrockets 

I said "not much faster." If you see my post above, I concede 3W in my race on Sunday.

Don't confuse my riding a heavy bike with thinking that's the best choice. When I bought it, I was racing maybe once a year, usually to mentor a friend in the sport. I just wanted a lively frame that would last a really long time. You probably won't find a single post in all of BF where I recommend that someone buys a steel frame for racing.

In the last two years, I've been slowly getting back into racing, and my next bike (maybe in 2010) will certainly be selected with this activity in mind. I'm thinking either an old Lightspeed/Dean/Merlin, or a CAAD9 (which will be pretty cheap by then). Also, I'll probably buy used and maybe go on a 5-year cycle instead of 10.

My point is that the 3W my bike cost me in the climb during my breakaway on Sunday was not the deciding factor in my inability to hang. I'm not saying 3W = 0W -- there is a difference -- but my fitness is the problem, not my bike.