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Trek dumps LeMond

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Trek dumps LeMond

Old 07-05-08, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina

PCaddy, to be honest, you disappoint with your blind LA worship. It goes against your persona. IMHO LA was a blight on cycling. I just wish he would go away and stay away.

As to the work the LA foundation has done this is a positive thing and he deserves full credit for his efforts here. He's done more for those affected with cancer than almost anyone else in America. Just ask him.
I don't worship LA. I just think those who want to bring him down don't get it. Lance was a gift to cycling. He didn't bring any blight to cycling at all. He just performed in the dope-ridden circus that was already there, and if you don't believe that, I think you're being amazingly naieve. Demonizing Lance because he won 7 Tours is ridiculous in that context. All he did wrong was win. That boosted the Tdf, the LAF, and the entire sport. Doping is a separate issue in my view, a much larger issue, and far more complex than just one cyclist. It permeated all of cycling, and has polluted the entire pro sports business. Try not to confuse athletic idealism with the pro sports industry, because they're often in conflict.

Let me know who you think raced clean from 1998-2005. If you can think of anybody that is.

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Old 07-05-08, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
Read my post again. It's short. You should be able to find the point in there.

I agree with you in that Lemond isn't doing himself any favours but, just as you say I don't know anything about whether LA doped or not, I can equally say that you haver no idea what Lemonds' motivation may be or what really happened between the two to make Lemond so bitter towards LA (threats, for instance IIRC).

PCaddy, to be honest, you disappoint with your blind LA worship. It goes against your persona.
IMHO LA was a blight on cycling. I just wish he would go away and stay away.

As to the work the LA foundation has done this is a positive thing and he deserves full credit for his efforts here. He's done more for those affected with cancer than almost anyone else in America. Just ask him.
I thought you were in the bike business. If you are, then that's an odd statement.
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Old 07-05-08, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by botto
I thought you were in the bike business. If you are, then that's an odd statement.
In fact, if you really believe that BD, consider a new career.
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Old 07-05-08, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad
In fact, if you really believe that BD, consider a new career.
The TdF was plenty big enough before LA.

I never liked him as a rider, I don't like how he raced and I don't like how he narrowed professional bike racing to the TdF in the eyes of many.

That's just my opinion and I am not alone.

You would be surprised how many industry people are not LA fans.
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Old 07-05-08, 06:36 AM
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Its not really if you like him or not. His popularity helped spur bike sales especially in the US. That's good for the business.
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Old 07-05-08, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ravenmore
Its not really if you like him or not. His popularity helped spur bike sales especially in the US. That's good for the business.
This is certainly a popularly held belief in the United States.

I do believe it helped Trek and that, to some degree the success of LA helped increase sales in the US. IIRC road bike sales (in the US) peaked around tour 5 and were falling off in the last 2 years.

Ultimately, there are far too many forces at work, in a global market, to attribute the rise or fall of bike sales to any single factor. Even if we attribute an increase in road bike sales (in the US) to LA how does this factor into increased sales in Europe?

Pure speculation on my part but I am willing to bet that we will see larger sales increases (due to the price of oil) over the next two years than during the 7 years of LA.

And, even if LA was the second coming I'm still allowed not to like him if I choose. It's just an opinion.
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Old 07-05-08, 07:16 AM
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After all of this I've fashioned a catechism for the Armstrong/Trek v. LeMond tempest in the teapot.

Who is Greg LeMond? A retired American cyclist.

What is his nature? He is the 1st American to win the TdF and eventually won it 3 times (twice after surviving a nearly fatal hunting accident in which he was shot and still has shotgun pellets in his body). He increased the status of cycling by a considerable amount. He speaks against doping (some feel all too often) and started a bicycle company some time ago. He is largely forgotten by most cyclists and BF posters today.

Who is Lance Armstrong? A retired American cyclist.

What is his nature? He won the TdF an unprecedented 7 times. His is a remarkable story since these victories came after surviving testicular cancer that had spread throughout his body. He has founded a cancer research foundation that is of immense benefit. He is in the middle of his post-career glory and is very well known.

Do these 2 men like each other? Not even a little bit.

Is either man the "greatest cyclist of all-time?" No. LeMond was the 1st American to succeed in what is still a mostly European sport and is a true pioneer. Armstrong was the best at the biggest race for an unprecedented time period.

Then who is "the greatest cyclist of all-time?" Eddy Merckx. Any other answer is blasphemy at worst, woeful ignorance even in the best light.

Did LeMond create an American cycling renaissance? If he did, it didn't endure.

Did Armstrong create an American cycling renaissance? Remains to be seen but holding ones breath is not advised.

Did Armstrong dope? I do not know and don't care an awful lot. Unless more evidence surfaces the presumption of innocence should hold.

Is LeMond right about EPO and the pro peloton? Probably but I don't have direct experience.

Has LeMond's "directness" adversely affected his business interests? Yes.

Is this intelligent? Not in my opinion but LeMond may well see it differently.

Do I know, or have even met, either man? No, though I was once within 3 feet of LeMond at a race in West Palm Beach back in 1986 or 1987.

Does a personal and business spat between 2 people I've never met affect me? Well, I'm writing about it but not really otherwise.

Is Armstrong the focus of a cult that obsesses over whom he dates and how he has designed/decorated his most recent home? Evidently.

Is this rational? Ask the cult members.

Are Trek bikes cool? For True Believers they were cooler when they were silver brazed and lugged but they are amongst the very best bikes available today.

Are LeMond bikes cool? IMO a red 853 Maillot Jaune with Chorus that happens to be about 10 feet behind me is the bees knees.

Will I be very PO'd with RoadWarrior if my MJ goes "poof?" Yes. In fact I will probably hunt him down.

Practice your responses or be prepared to get your knuckles rapped.

This can be added to but heretics are burned.....


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Old 07-05-08, 08:10 AM
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Hereby abbreviated and amended:

Originally Posted by Walter

Who is Greg LeMond? A retired American cyclist.

What is his nature? . . . . He is largely forgotten by most cyclists and BF posters today.
Apparently not.

Then who is "the greatest cyclist of all-time?" BillyD, of course. Any other answer is blasphemy at worst, woeful ignorance even in the best light.

Did Armstrong create an American cycling renaissance? Remains to be seen but holding ones breath is not advised.
Incorrect. Occurring as we speak is the greatest road biking renaissance America has seen since the 1970's, thanks inarguably to the feats of that Lance feller.

Did Armstrong dope? I do not know and don't care an awful lot. Unless more evidence surfaces the presumption of innocence should hold.
Absolutely. If they didn't catch him then they must assume he didn't do it -- superhuman accomplishments are considered circumstantial evidence in any court.

Has LeMond's "directness" adversely affected his business interests? Yes.

Is this intelligent? Not in my opinion but LeMond may well see it differently.
Diplomacy is not his strong suit. As a sagittarian I can sympathize.

Is Armstrong the focus of a cult that obsesses over whom he dates and how he has designed/decorated his most recent home? Evidently.
Ditto.

Is this rational? Ask the cult members.
The sagittarian answer is: "Hell No . . . Get A Life".

Are LeMond bikes cool? IMO a red 853 Maillot Jaune with Chorus that happens to be about 10 feet behind me is the bees knees.
Other colors are also nice.

Will I be very PO'd with RoadWarrior if my MJ goes "poof?" Yes. In fact I will probably hunt him down.
Me too . . . I'll bring the rope.

This can be added to but heretics are burned.....

BTW: Major Taylor and BillyD rule!
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Old 07-05-08, 08:22 AM
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I don't know about this Major Taylor guy but I need my knuckles rapped for leaving out BillyD.








PS: For those unable to detect sarcastic humor; I do know about Major Taylor.
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Old 07-05-08, 08:41 AM
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Major Taylor was a bad @ss mo fo. Something like 3 world championships and set 8 worlds records. Cycling was really different back then so its hard to make a comparisson. He was definitely a pioneer.

I've always resisted calling Merckx the greatest for some reason - or calling anyone the greatest for that matter(that Coppi fella was pretty good too). I've also always wondered if Merckx doped. He did go through a doping scandal. Also IME when someone is that dominant for that long it always raises a red flag to me. Guess I'm getting skeptical in my old age.
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Old 07-05-08, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
This is certainly a popularly held belief in the United States.

I do believe it helped Trek and that, to some degree the success of LA helped increase sales in the US. IIRC road bike sales (in the US) peaked around tour 5 and were falling off in the last 2 years.

Ultimately, there are far too many forces at work, in a global market, to attribute the rise or fall of bike sales to any single factor. Even if we attribute an increase in road bike sales (in the US) to LA how does this factor into increased sales in Europe?

Pure speculation on my part but I am willing to bet that we will see larger sales increases (due to the price of oil) over the next two years than during the 7 years of LA.And, even if LA was the second coming I'm still allowed not to like him if I choose. It's just an opinion.
Doesn't comparing Lance Armstrong to the influence caused by the rising cost of oil, make a pretty strong point in itself?
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Old 07-05-08, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
The TdF was plenty big enough before LA.
You do miss the point. He made it MUCH bigger, in markets worldwide.
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Old 07-05-08, 08:59 AM
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I think a great, non-scientific way to determine the validity of LA's impact is to ask random folks (bikers or otherwise) to name one famous bicyclist.

In the U.S., odds are that most people won't know anyone other than Lance unless they are bicyclists or fans. Just for fun I've asked my girlfriend, my friends, and my family over the past two days, "Name one bicyclist," and all of them said Lance. I asked them to name another...and none of them could (short of laughing and saying my name).

Love him, hate him, or feel apathetic about him, it can't be denied that he attracted a lot of attention to the sport. Yes, a majority of it was likely in America. But, America is a pretty damn big market full of people with plenty of disposable income. Our brand of "poverty" includes two TVs per household with cable or satellite, cell phones, and routine trips to restaurants.

Lance's impact, even if one only considers America, was a huge benefit to bicycling as a sport and industry. It at least laid the groundwork for the likely growth of bicycling that will result for the rising gas prices in the U.S.
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Old 07-05-08, 09:04 AM
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When people yell at me from their cars, they either say, "Get off the road, a**hole!" or "Go, Lance!"
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Old 07-05-08, 09:42 AM
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Yeah, but I'm still interested if anyone really believes that LeMond's talking out against Lance actually hurt bike sales for either LeMond, Trek, or the industry as a whole.
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Old 07-05-08, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
The TdF was plenty big enough before LA.
correct.

Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
I never liked him as a rider, I don't like how he raced and I don't like how he narrowed professional bike racing to the TdF in the eyes of many.

That's just my opinion and I am not alone.


You would be surprised how many industry people are not LA fans.
i doubt it, but you're missing my point. like it or not, Armstrong brought in a significant amount of new business.
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Old 07-05-08, 10:37 AM
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Valverde won today's stage and the Yellow Jersey. He was wearing a Livestrong bracelet. Maybe he's a doper like his doper pal Armstrong.
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Old 07-05-08, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by patentcad
You do miss the point. He made it MUCH bigger, in markets worldwide.
No. He did not. Road bike sales were falling in the last two years of his career.
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Old 07-05-08, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Nachoman
Doesn't comparing Lance Armstrong to the influence caused by the rising cost of oil, make a pretty strong point in itself?
I'm not comparing them. I'm saying LAs' influence will pale by comparison.
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Old 07-05-08, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by shundaroni
I think a great, non-scientific way to determine the validity of LA's impact is to ask random folks (bikers or otherwise) to name one famous bicyclist.

In the U.S., odds are that most people won't know anyone other than Lance unless they are bicyclists or fans. Just for fun I've asked my girlfriend, my friends, and my family over the past two days, "Name one bicyclist," and all of them said Lance. I asked them to name another...and none of them could (short of laughing and saying my name).

Love him, hate him, or feel apathetic about him, it can't be denied that he attracted a lot of attention to the sport. Yes, a majority of it was likely in America. But, America is a pretty damn big market full of people with plenty of disposable income. Our brand of "poverty" includes two TVs per household with cable or satellite, cell phones, and routine trips to restaurants.

Lance's impact, even if one only considers America, was a huge benefit to bicycling as a sport and industry. It at least laid the groundwork for the likely growth of bicycling that will result for the rising gas prices in the U.S.
Correct.

His impact on European sales (where WAYYYY more bicycles are sold) is less.

There's no way to prove this but I bet Boonen sells more bike shwag than LA ever did.
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Old 07-05-08, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rusto
When people (in the US) yell at me from their cars, they either say, "Get off the road, a**hole!" or "Go, Lance!"
Fixed.

In Taiwan they 'Chai Yo!'. This has nothing to do with LA.

I'm also pretty sure that Belgian, Dutch, French, Spanish, Italian, Columbian, Russian, Australian, Kazak, Polish, British, Swiss, German, Norwegian, Danish, South African, and drivers in other countries yell something else.

As a Tour Champion LA was popular in every cycling nation but no more so than other Tour winners. His influence is felt most strongly in America because he is American. What about this is so hard to understand.
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Old 07-05-08, 01:25 PM
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I'm not saying you have to like him or not, but his Tour wins did sell some bikes. He probably had more impact on bike sales during his tour wins than any other single rider by far.
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Old 07-05-08, 01:34 PM
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But I believe Bob's point, and as some others have pointed out, is that this renaissance happened almost exclusively in the United States.

Its tough for me to see why a Swiss rider, or Turkish or anyone outside the U.S. really, would buy a Trek just because Lance won the Tour. I can see how Lance's story could motivate people to ride, but I'm inclined to think this was a more American-centric phenomenon.

Of course, CSC is the biggest team around these days, and those darn Cervelos keep popping up all over the road now, so what do I know?

Anyone have ideas on industry data we could look at to get some idea on what actually happened with sales, rather than just wagging a wild finger about in the air? We won't be able to show a link to a "Lance effect" or not, but we can at least see if there were any large spikes.
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Old 07-05-08, 01:42 PM
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I never distinguished it being American centric or not. Bottom line, Lance's tour wins sold bikes. Period.
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Old 07-05-08, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
Originally Posted by rusto

When people (in the US) yell at me from their cars, they either say, "Get off the road, a**hole!" or "Go, Lance!"
Fixed.
They'd have to yell pretty loud for me to hear them if they WEREN'T in the US.
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