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Cyclist going to jail for no I.D.? This is crazy!

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Cyclist going to jail for no I.D.? This is crazy!

Old 05-24-08, 07:34 AM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by rooftest View Post
This cracks me up - How do you think we are somehow less free than we were decades ago? Let's see - 50 years ago it was illegal to marry someone outside your race in many states, Ask someone who wasn't a white male who lived during the 40's or 50's.

Better yet, ask someone who's Japanese who lived in the US when WWII broke out. Ask them if they miss all the "freedoms" they have given up.
I have and most agree. Sure, in some areas we are more 'enlightened', for each of those there are more that go the other way. Plus, I don't need to ask those who are older than me, I've seen it in my own lifetime. So we'll have to agree to disagree...which we can still do, mostly.
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Old 05-24-08, 07:38 AM
  #152  
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[QUOTE=merlinextraligh;6744848]
Originally Posted by laguary9 View Post


You're missing the analysis. You commit a traffic offense. You typically sign for the ticket and promise to pay the ticket or appear in Court. However, if you can't establish who you say you are, the Police don't have to release you and you get a trip downtown, until you can establish acceptable security that you are who you say you are, and that you will appear as required.

It's the same whether you run a red light in your car, run a stop sign on your bike , or jaywalk.

Admittedly, the Sherrif is being a hard ass, but he's playing it by the book. Best way to deal with it is know the book.
Agreed. But it sounds like this guy hates cyclists and is doing some "selective enforcement".
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Old 05-24-08, 07:54 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by Coyote2 View Post
I stopped reading your post after the first ridiculously wide-sweeping and unverifiable statement, which is highlighted above.
That was the best part!
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Old 05-24-08, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rooftest View Post
This cracks me up - How do you think we are somehow less free than we were decades ago? Let's see - 50 years ago it was illegal to marry someone outside your race in many states, Ask someone who wasn't a white male who lived during the 40's or 50's.

Better yet, ask someone who's Japanese who lived in the US when WWII broke out. Ask them if they miss all the "freedoms" they have given up.
That was mainly based on race and discrimination. I don't agree with our shady past either (slavery or racial profiling) but it was part of the growing pains of our nation from the very beginning.

However...

In May of 2007, several executive orders were signed by the president, which becomes "law" with no discussion from other branches of the government. Most of the bills passed by congress and senate were not actually READ and several statements that are now law were inserted into bills that had nothing to do with national security or were inserted at the last minute so it would be difficult to have any debate (ie: sneaky).

The language used in the actual executive orders, patriot act and military commisions act documention is terrifying because the reasons for invoking these "powers" is always UNDEFINED. This means if the stock market plunges, gas prices soar to some UNDEFINED level, another "Katrina" happens, another 9/11 attack or we invade another country (and it appears that we will...) then the president has the power to suspend the constitution and bill of rights... and not just temporarily either. For whatever reason he/she sees fit, with no discussion with the senate/congress for 6 months. That, in my humble opinion sounds like the beginnings of a dictatorship!

I suggest every American read the actual documentation of each and every executive order and bills passed from the house and senate related to National Security, then read the constitution and bill of rights and come to your own conclusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl1VIhdpl4c
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Old 05-24-08, 08:49 AM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by cyclezealot View Post
Is not this dilema compounded by the fact, cycling ( presently) in most states, does not require a drivers license. But . the catch, all persons are required to carry id at all times, I think. ? So there is the catch. Still it's stupid when that person is being lawful. Its little different from when you go for a walk about town. Do we always carry I.D. .. I don't.
As stated several times in this painful thread: There are no laws in the US that citizens must "carry id". If an officer has probable cause to suspect you have commited a crime or a violation, you must confirm your identity to the officer. You can do this by providing verbal information such as your full name, date of birth, DL # if you know it, SS# and/or address. The officer will be able to confirm if the information is correct or not in a five minute radio or in-car computer check and get information about your physical description to confirm.

All backed up, confirmed and ruled on by the Supreme Court 2005/2006

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Old 05-24-08, 08:49 AM
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By the way, I bet most of Sheriff Alderen's employees think he's a jerk and will find better ways to spend their valuable time instead of harassing cyclists riding two abreast.
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Old 05-24-08, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ZXiMan View Post
That was mainly based on race and discrimination. I don't agree with our shady past either (slavery or racial profiling) but it was part of the growing pains of our nation from the very beginning.

However...

In May of 2007, several executive orders were signed by the president, which becomes "law" with no discussion from other branches of the government. Most of the bills passed by congress and senate were not actually READ and several statements that are now law were inserted into bills that had nothing to do with national security or were inserted at the last minute so it would be difficult to have any debate (ie: sneaky).

The language used in the actual executive orders, patriot act and military commisions act documention is terrifying because the reasons for invoking these "powers" is always UNDEFINED. This means if the stock market plunges, gas prices soar to some UNDEFINED level, another "Katrina" happens, another 9/11 attack or we invade another country (and it appears that we will...) then the president has the power to suspend the constitution and bill of rights... and not just temporarily either. For whatever reason he/she sees fit, with no discussion with the senate/congress for 6 months. That, in my humble opinion sounds like the beginnings of a dictatorship!

I suggest every American read the actual documentation of each and every executive order and bills passed from the house and senate related to National Security, then read the constitution and bill of rights and come to your own conclusion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl1VIhdpl4c
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Old 05-24-08, 09:05 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by cyclezealot View Post
Is not this dilema compounded by the fact, cycling ( presently) in most states, does not require a drivers license. But . the catch, all persons are required to carry id at all times, I think. ? So there is the catch. Still it's stupid when that person is being lawful. Its little different from when you go for a walk about town. Do we always carry I.D. .. I don't.
No, you are not required to carry ID at all times. You will be asked to produce one if you have violated a law. So what is it you suggest, that you not carry one, but be allowed to run home and get it if you impeded traffic or blow through a stop light?

I'm an adult. I carry ID with me at all times, not because I have to but because it's stupid not to. You "police state" weenies want to act like the fact (yes, I said fact) that it is smarter to carry ID at all times outside of your home doesn't exist because you might decide to commit some petty crime and don't want "the man" to be able to identify you.

And that's the bottom line here. For some reason, some cyclists believe that if they don't have their driver's license with them, they can commit traffic offenses with impunity. This has nothing to do with freedom of travel, you are free to go about your business as you please so long as you are not trespassing or in any other way violating the law or another citizen's rights. When you cross that line, you can be held accountable. When you don't have a reliable means of quickly identifying yourself, you will likely be detained while your identity can be established.

Again, not being able to establish your identity is NOT a primary offense, and you aren't being threatened with jail for not having ID. You are being threatened with being jailed for a traffic violation, the investigation of which can not be completed until your identity can be reliably established. No, your word is not good enough, especially if you've already acted like an asshat. Therefore, they put you in the back of the car and take you to jail where they have a nice, cozy facility where you can wait until your identity can be established.
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Old 05-24-08, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by cyclezealot View Post
At least the Marine Patrol did not stop you out on the waves./You did not definitively say he did not 'ran you in.' / So to complete the story . Did he run you in. Sounds like he didn't . ?
I skipped out on this one. He gets another call on the radio and has to leave but, not before writing down the info I gave him about my address etc.

As this story made the rounds with the friends it turns out I was hardly the first cyclist to be stopped around downtown HB, particularly in the summer.

For a number of years, around the Fourth of July, the cops could and, often did, arrest people who were on bikes w/o a 'bike license'. The license was free but, you had to go city hall and register for it. They came up with this idea to cut down on the "rioting" that was infamous around Huntington on the 4th.
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Old 05-24-08, 09:15 AM
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an earlier poster ended their post with " Just wait until you need a cop's HELP." really? you think you should have to carry id to get help from a police officer?

for those that dont recognize the dramatic increase in law enforcement nationwide, i submit the following:

1. go to your local schools and check out the security presence
2. look at how full your local jails are
3. look at prison statistics
4. revenue generation for traffic offenses

what you law and order types fail to understand is coined "behavioral economics." punishing people for low level offenses doesnt work, it doesnt get people to change the way they behave. if you want behavior to change you need to motivate, increase personal involvement and promote responsibility.
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Old 05-24-08, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Flynko View Post
But Survivor Three Mile Island is on!!
Exactly...

Apathy will be this countries downfall. People are too busy, too distracted, too much involved with their lives to care. Our education programs are failing and our healthcare system is in deep trouble. Quality of living for most middleclass Americans has taken a huge plunge. Our civil liberties are being incrementally destroyed in the name of security. No one seems to care.

That "apathetic" mindset should all change though when people can't afford to buy enough gas to get back and forth to work. Most people will be working just so they can make it to work. What's that sound like? Care to guess what you will be paying at the pump when oil hits $200+ a barrel? Some experts predict $8.00 a gallon by the end of the year and even some others have said $15.00 a gallon could be a reality in the next 12-18 months.

People think that the price of oil is going up because of supply and demand. This is incorrect. Supply is high (there's actually a surplus) and as the price keeps increasing, demand is lower. The reason... (drumroll please)... is because our currency has been overvaluated for decades. The "Federal Reserve" is about as much "Federal" as Federal Express (laughs). These are private banks owned by the "Elite" in our society. They print and distribute our currency, the gov does not. These are the same banks that you pay your mortgages, car payments, boat payments etc etc. The US gov should be printing our money and distributing it, not the PRIVATE sector. There is nothing backing our dollar. It is just a piece of paper and we're led to believe that it has some value attached to it. What? Where and how?

Someone once quoted: "Whomever controls the money, controls the country."

Anyone know who said that?
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Old 05-24-08, 09:36 AM
  #162  
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Don't forget that if you live in a city larger than 1,000 people there are security cameras EVERYWHERE. On every single intersection pointing in every single direction imaginable. Most people have never noticed them. These are NOT traffic cameras. They are in every major city in america. This is not a State level or Local level initiative. Also, It is a proven fact that our registration stickers here in Texas contain an RFID chip in them. recently the powers that be have installed RFID "readers" above certain main roads and intersections where I live. Why? So we can be more secure? <laughs>. As long as you do nothing wrong, right? Sounds more and more like "1984" to me!

Police also have RFID readers in their cars and instead of actually looking to see if your registration is expired, the computer can locate a car on the road. More red light cameras giving out tickets to red light runners. This has actually caused MORE accidents.

Originally Posted by grail29er View Post
an earlier poster ended their post with " Just wait until you need a cop's HELP." really? you think you should have to carry id to get help from a police officer?

for those that dont recognize the dramatic increase in law enforcement nationwide, i submit the following:

1. go to your local schools and check out the security presence
2. look at how full your local jails are
3. look at prison statistics
4. revenue generation for traffic offenses

what you law and order types fail to understand is coined "behavioral economics." punishing people for low level offenses doesnt work, it doesnt get people to change the way they behave. if you want behavior to change you need to motivate, increase personal involvement and promote responsibility.
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Old 05-24-08, 09:50 AM
  #163  
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This is all so stupid. From what I can tell, there is no state that has a helmet law for over 18, and something like only 15 counties/villages that do. So, if they start passing state wide helmet laws, we can all start riding without helmets to be defiant. Just like all the idiots that won't wear seatbelts to be defiant. Yeah, you proved your point when they find you 50 feet from the car with you head at a 90 deg angle. Let's just hope you have your id with you so they can tell what car you came from.

This whole idea of lost freedom is BS. The USA is nothing like it was 200+ years ago, yet we still operate under the same basic written papers that have had very little tweaking other than the Bill of Rights and 20 something amendments, all of which did a pretty good job of increasing our rights. The ideas that our founding fathers based this country on must have been fairly solid if they still work this many years later in a world that they could have had no way of comprehending.

And if everyone could remove the laws that they feel are unfair, there would be no laws. If there were not laws, there would be no USA. If enough people don't like a law, they have the power to change the law. And before there is a law preventing you from moving to a better country, you can always move.
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Old 05-24-08, 09:59 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by ZXiMan View Post
Don't forget that if you live in a city larger than 1,000 people there are security cameras EVERYWHERE. On every single intersection pointing in every single direction imaginable. Most people have never noticed them. These are NOT traffic cameras. They are in every major city in america. This is not a State level or Local level initiative. Also, It is a proven fact that our registration stickers here in Texas contain an RFID chip in them. recently the powers that be have installed RFID "readers" above certain main roads and intersections where I live. Why? So we can be more secure? <laughs>. As long as you do nothing wrong, right? Sounds more and more like "1984" to me!

Police also have RFID readers in their cars and instead of actually looking to see if your registration is expired, the computer can locate a car on the road. More red light cameras giving out tickets to red light runners. This has actually caused MORE accidents.
Rediculous.

To that Canadian guy who was extolling the police-state of the US: you might be functionally ********, but its really hard to distinguish on BF. There is basically not much difference between the two countries, and those that love to point out differences usually have a "I'm unique" complex.

To those proclaiming the US is a police state, akin to Orwell's 1984: read the book. Until the world is fractured into massive warring nations, your government monitors you constantly in your home, secret police detain, torture, and ultimately kill you and your spouse - you're not there yet. The mere fact that there is dialog on this issue tells you we're not there yet.
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Old 05-24-08, 10:00 AM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by tbrown524 View Post
Doubt they'll do the same to the illegal aliens there....

Here in California they're not even detained if they drive without a license.
they do i am illegal i have gotten 5 tickets within the last 8 years most that range any where from 800 to 1200 and a 12 hour encarceration. they will release u because they know they will catch u again and make ore money. if you live in cali u might have noticed that since the economic state that cali. is in you see more check points and cops pulling over drivers for the most absurd reasons. Now when they give anyone a ticket for riding in a unsafe manner 90% of the time the case gets dissmissed.
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Old 05-24-08, 10:05 AM
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"This whole idea of lost freedom is BS. The USA is nothing like it was 200+ years ago, yet we still operate under the same basic written papers that have had very little tweaking other than the Bill of Rights and 20 something amendments, all of which did a pretty good job of increasing our rights. The ideas that our founding fathers based this country on must have been fairly solid if they still work this many years later in a world that they could have had no way of comprehending.

And if everyone could remove the laws that they feel are unfair, there would be no laws. If there were not laws, there would be no USA. If enough people don't like a law, they have the power to change the law. And before there is a law preventing you from moving to a better country, you can always move."



-------------------------------------------------------

Our Founders made checks and balances in our government for a very good reason:

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Our government is supposed to serve us, not the other way around.

So what you are essentially saying is that even if laws are written and passed but they are UNCONSTITUTIONAL, that is ok with YOU? It's NOT ok with me.

Only a COWARD would leave his country because of oppression...
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Old 05-24-08, 10:16 AM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by kergin View Post
Rediculous.

To that Canadian guy who was extolling the police-state of the US: you might be functionally ********, but its really hard to distinguish on BF. There is basically not much difference between the two countries, and those that love to point out differences usually have a "I'm unique" complex.

To those proclaiming the US is a police state, akin to Orwell's 1984: read the book. Until the world is fractured into massive warring nations, your government monitors you constantly in your home, secret police detain, torture, and ultimately kill you and your spouse - you're not there yet. The mere fact that there is dialog on this issue tells you we're not there yet.
Rediculous, but true.

Most people don't even know what an RFID chip is. It is a tracking device. It is a technology being used without the peoples consent or knowledge. There was no vote or debate, yet we can be tracked wherever we go. Is that really freedom?

Same thing with the new REALID (ie" National ID card).

Don't just discount something as heresay or as being "rediculous" without doing some research.
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Old 05-24-08, 10:19 AM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by cyclezealot View Post
Is not this dilema compounded by the fact, cycling ( presently) in most states, does not require a drivers license. But . the catch, all persons are required to carry id at all times, I think. ? So there is the catch. Still it's stupid when that person is being lawful. Its little different from when you go for a walk about town. Do we always carry I.D. .. I don't.
NO NO NO!!!!

NOWHERE in the USA do you have to have identification on you!!! I don't need "id" or "papers" or whatever to walk down the street. I don't need a "drivers licence" to operate a bicycle, a skateboard (YES, a skateboard IS a vehicle, too!!) as long as it's not motorised.

No, would it be a good idea to have some form of identification on yourself while you're riding? Yea. Just incase something happens to you & people need to know who you are, where you live, etc. No, it doesn't have to be a drivers licence (theres' no "bike licence") it could be identification from work, a health insurance card, passport, etc etc.

Phewwwwwwwww
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Old 05-24-08, 10:22 AM
  #169  
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I'm saying the government represents us. We have the power as people to make this country what ever we want it to be. IF as people we choose to not do that, then we are doing just that. Those that have a real issue about something can either start a movement to change things or learn to deal with it. I'm always amazed by the people that whine about what isn't right about this country, but stay here to take all that is right.
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Old 05-24-08, 10:24 AM
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This is my first foray into this board, so please don't beat me up too badly

If you are suspected of breaking the law, you must prove who you are. If the officer doesn't trust your verification, than that officer will take you into custody until your identity is proven. That I understand. If you and a fellow cyclist are riding two abreast and impeding traffic, that is breaking the law. That I also understand. My issue with the sheriff is his wrong interpretation of the law. He believes it means if you are riding two abreast at any time than you have the potential to impede traffic flow and are therefore, breaking the law. He also feels that cyclists should always ride to the furthest right as possible and always ride on the shoulder. These two misinterpretations are not only misleading, but can be dangerous to cyclists.

The sheriffs arrogance and ignorance only help to cause further backlash among cyclists.
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Old 05-24-08, 10:25 AM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by ZXiMan View Post
.
The "Federal Reserve" is about as much "Federal" as Federal Express (laughs). These are private banks owned by the "Elite" in our society. They print and distribute our currency, the gov does not. ?
Someone (some libertarian) I remember from awhile back said "the federal reserve bank is not Federal, there are no reserves, and it is not a bank" How true!!
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Old 05-24-08, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tulex View Post
I'm saying the government represents us. We have the power as people to make this country what ever we want it to be. IF as people we choose to not do that, then we are doing just that. Those that have a real issue about something can either start a movement to change things or learn to deal with it. I'm always amazed by the people that whine about what isn't right about this country, but stay here to take all that is right.
Really? You need to read Lou Dobbs "War on the middleclass" book if you really believe that.

Lobbyists and Special Interest Groups are well represented. Commoners, not so much.

If that is the majority of "representation" in our country.... then the people are not being represented OR served by their government.
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Old 05-24-08, 10:40 AM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by TuckertonRR View Post
Someone (some libertarian) I remember from awhile back said "the federal reserve bank is not Federal, there are no reserves, and it is not a bank" How true!!
They are banks... but they are private banks. The actual names and people involved is "secret".
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Old 05-24-08, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ZXiMan View Post
Really? You need to read Lou Dobbs "War on the middleclass" book if you really believe that.

Lobbyists and Special Interest Groups are well represented. Commoners, not so much.

If that is the majority of "representation" in our country.... then the people are not being represented OR served by their government.
No, I actually don't need to read anything to put me into a particular mind set. I walk out of my house, I feel free. That works for me. I turn on the news, don't have to watch much about what is going on with the rest of the world to be glad I live here. I simply choose to look at what is right with this country, not what is wrong. Get pulled over in Mexico, Russia, etc, you better have some money with your license. Try that here, you go to jail. That is freedom. The cops here are just trying to do their job. We might not like that they can bust on us if they choose, but they don't tend to do that unless we are in the wrong. The original post isn't about freedom anyway. It's about being upset about having to follow the law.
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Old 05-24-08, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tulex View Post
No, I actually don't need to read anything to put me into a particular mind set. I walk out of my house, I feel free. That works for me. I turn on the news, don't have to watch much about what is going on with the rest of the world to be glad I live here. I simply choose to look at what is right with this country, not what is wrong. Get pulled over in Mexico, Russia, etc, you better have some money with your license. Try that here, you go to jail. That is freedom. The cops here are just trying to do their job. We might not like that they can bust on us if they choose, but they don't tend to do that unless we are in the wrong. The original post isn't about freedom anyway. It's about being upset about having to follow the law.
Typical "Polyanna" syndrome. Good luck with that attitude if/when you lose your freedom.

As long as nothing you deem is "wrong", you are O.K.

Wake up and smell the stink!

If the dissenters are right, you (and many others) just sat around on your duffs and did nothing. Freedom is NOT free...

May I quote Thomas Jefferson:

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent".

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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