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??'s about ZIPP's

Old 06-14-08, 09:58 PM
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??'s about ZIPP's

After riding some ZIPP's, I believe 404 Clinchers will meet my needs, or should I say wants. Plan on using ZIPPs for time trials & triathlons no crits. Also, would like to use them daily vs. limiting them to special events only. Most of my riding will be in the flats. Am I making a mistake getting 404's vs. 606's? Clinchers vs. Tubulars? I know tubulars save me 200 grams/wheel. My weight is 170, probably 175 with gear riding Mavic Kysrium Elites. Clydes are designed for 200+ lb persons per ZIPP site however I have seen a more conservative limit of 180 lbs. Plus I was told via ZIPP technical rep if you put out over 300 watts continuosly then go with CLYDE's no matter your weight. Would assume CLYDE version would be more bullet proof. Would anyone recommend getting CLYDE version for me? Looking for some input. Thanks for the time.
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Old 06-14-08, 10:15 PM
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Tubies offer a substantial advantage in racing/competitive ride situations, but they are more of a pain for daily training. I don't train on mine too often, mainly race or do the local racer rides (you can call that training, for me those are like sandlot bicycle races). But the lightness and overall raceability of Zipp 404 tubies can NOT be overstated. Many of the serious guys I race with (and some of those dudes are way fast) race on them and love them.
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Old 06-15-08, 06:57 AM
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Given your intended usage and riding in a flatter area, I would actually suggest a set of 808s. If you're anxious about handling on the 808 front I would then go with the 606s, but I wouldn't be concerned about that. As Fabian Cancellara says, the 808 is the new 404. For what it's worth, he puts down a bit of power and is using the stock laminate and hubset, not the Clydesdales. I generally stick with the 200 pound recommendation when it comes to switching to the Clydesdale set; you add a touch of weight, we've seen essentially no aerodynamic difference in the tunnel with the added spokes, and you gain approximately 12% in lateral stiffness (if I recall my numbers correctly-the stiffness delta is on the order of 12% if it is not exactly correct). In terms of clinchers versus tubies, I would definitely go for clinchers, but this is obviously something that can, and has been debated ad nauseum. I'd suggest looking into the data for crr on the tires you will likely use as tubies or clinchers; there is quite a bit of data out there on this subject that you may find interesting. I'm a bit short on time or I'd get into it more, but if you hop on over to slowtwitch.com and search their tri forum or visit biketechreview, there is a lot being said on the subject. Tour magazine in Germany just did a big tire comparison test as well, which might be useful if you can find a copy of it online. Hope this helps.
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Old 06-15-08, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Waldo
has been debated ad nauseum. I'd suggest looking into the data for crr on the tires you will likely use as tubies or clinchers

https://thejamoke.blogspot.com/2008/0...clinchers.html
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Old 06-15-08, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BILL_W_WV
After riding some ZIPP's, I believe 404 Clinchers will meet my needs, or should I say wants. Plan on using ZIPPs for time trials & triathlons no crits. Also, would like to use them daily vs. limiting them to special events only. Most of my riding will be in the flats. Am I making a mistake getting 404's vs. 606's? Clinchers vs. Tubulars? I know tubulars save me 200 grams/wheel. My weight is 170, probably 175 with gear riding Mavic Kysrium Elites. Clydes are designed for 200+ lb persons per ZIPP site however I have seen a more conservative limit of 180 lbs. Plus I was told via ZIPP technical rep if you put out over 300 watts continuosly then go with CLYDE's no matter your weight. Would assume CLYDE version would be more bullet proof. Would anyone recommend getting CLYDE version for me? Looking for some input. Thanks for the time.
I know plenty of people that train on there tubies, but they seem to be the type that have more time and money on their hands than I. The standard advice seems to be, tubies for racing, and clinchers for training. I got 404 tubies this spring and use them for "race only". No regrets. I weight 190 lbs and got the standard 404's (I had planned to loose 10 lbs but that didn't happen ) If I had to do it again, I'd probably get the Clydesdale tubular 404's and not worry about being gingerly with them. In any case, they've been running true despite racing on some rather rough roads.

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Old 06-15-08, 09:06 AM
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I had a recent thread on my sense of riding 404 tubies vs Ksyrium SLs, which are clinchers (check the search function). The more I ride the 404s, the more I appreciate the handling difference. There is some speed gain (I'm approximating 0.2mph, which is ballpark for what Zipp claims), but it's the cornering that I really like. I haven't done a tubie to clincher comparison for the 404s - if all you're doing is TTs maybe the cornering aspect isn't so important to you.

There is only one negative with the 404 tubies - braking while wet is not good. Just the ride across my front lawn to get to the drive way puts enough dew on them to make the initial braking dicey for the first 200 yds; then the water is squeegied off and they're fine.

Also, I bought my 404s off eBay - would have gone for 606s if I had the opportunity.
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Old 06-15-08, 10:28 AM
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What the heck, buy both tubies and clinchers. You know you want them. I have the tubies and a PowerTap laced to a clincher 404 rear. Thinking about scouring eBay for a clincher 404 front. They're heavier than the tubulars, but they're bulletproof train every day very aero clinchers that are the same weight as light clinchers like Ksyriums that aren't aero.
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Old 06-15-08, 05:17 PM
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Near as I can tell (and correct me if I'm wrong), you're using the data for the Tufo clincher and tubies (the only ones I've seen on BTR at varied pressures-again, I could be missing something) to make your case that tubies are superior. Some of what follows will be irrelevant if my assumption is incorrect, but some may be of interest regardless.

It certainly doesn't seem to be an unreasonable assumption that other tires would perform similarly, but this has definitely not been the case during the testing we've done with various tire manufacturers. Part of the issue in making a final determination in a category so varied is the differing construction methods of various manufacturers and tires, much less the amount and type of glue or tape, type of tube, latex backing on tubies, etc.

That said, there is conflicting data collected in real-world testing (albeit noisy due to the nature of the test) showing the Tufos actually experience an increase in crr with increasing pressure. There's also other data on BTR showing a negligible difference across the 120-140 PSI range.

We've been fortunate enough to work with several different tire manufacturers during the development of our first tire, as well as the current Tangente. During the course of our work, we've participated in studies and seen data previously generated by various manufacturers. Unfortunately, as the study I'd most like to cite was not funded by us, I cannot reveal the data or some people will be very unhappy with me. In any event, the common trend we have seen in these tests is that the rolling resistance of a tire is generally an inverted bell curve wherein the rolling resistance decreases with increasing pressure to a point where it reaches a minimum and then increases, though at a lower rate than it was decreasing prior to reaching the minimum. The data we've seen shows that even on a smooth drum the rolling resistance curve is asymptotic; that is, it continually decreases though at a decreasing rate, as though it is approaching some non-zero value. As we sell both clincher and tubular tires and manufacturing costs of each type of rim are virtually identical, we have no vested interested in promoting one over the other. I realize that not being able to actually provide the data I'm referencing is unfortunate, but Leonard Zinn has attested to this fact as well: https://velonews.com/article/7508

If there was actually an advantage to running higher pressures, we would certainly be promoting it as it could actually give our company an advantage since we are one of the few companies still actually designing and manufacturing our product. Designing and manufacturing around some higher pressure would be advantageous as we have the ability to use higher grades of materials with shorter development cycles than companies using shared facilities in Asia.

As one would expect, higher pressure in a tubular tire protects the rim from impact damage by means of the increased spring rate of the tire. The downside is that it simultaneously decreases rider comfort, increases rider fatigue, and decreases tire adhesion to the road. Clinchers are a different animal, as the tire pressure stresses the bead of the rim in such a way that increasing pressure makes the rim simultaneously less susceptible to impact damage but increases the stress and potential for damage to the bead under lateral loading. Of course, with clinchers one must be aware of the increase in pressure due to heating of the braking surface. Our testing has shown an increase in pressure of approximately 1 PSI corresponding to every 10 °F increase, which is significant when you consider that we've seen rim temperatures surpassing 340 °F in real-world conditions.

Here is a sample of the tire pressure recommendations on our Tangente tubular tires. These recommendations were developed with input from Vittoria based on the data they have acquired in their laboratory using realistic road surfaces with variable tire loading. We've also included different recommendations for tri bikes as opposed to conventional road bikes, due to the difference in weight distribution.



I've also included the information Michelin provides on many of their tires. It seems that most tire companies haven't come out with these recommendations as they are wary of their products being perceived as unable to accommodate the higher pressures many people still prefer. When examining our chart as well as the Michelin chart, consider also that higher pressures lead to increased tire wear so it would be advantageous to tire companies to foster the belief that higher pressures are beneficial.



It seems that most tire companies haven't come out with these recommendations as they are wary of their products being perceived as unable to accommodate the higher pressures many people still prefer. When examining our chart as well as the Michelin chart, consider also that higher pressures lead to increased tire wear so it would be advantageous to tire companies to foster the belief that higher pressures are beneficial.

Lastly (sorry this ended up being so long-winded), I'd suggest that the perception of increased pressure being beneficial is analogous to the belief that narrower tires have low rolling resistance. Though this would seem logical to some, the data does not bear this out but it is taking time to change this perception. Some also believe that a tire's ability to deform as it rolls over an imperfection corresponds with an increase in rolling resistance. I think it sometimes gets lost in the shuffle that an actual road has a significant amount of surface roughness and imperfections (relative to most of the laboratory tests that are cited), it becomes clear that rolling resistance is less about the amount of tire deformation (where increased pressure will be of benefit) and more about how easily the tire conforms to any imperfections in the road surface. This is actually part of the reason latex tubes have such a pronounced reduction in rolling resistance-they are able to deform to obstacles more easily.

This discussion has thus far neglected the effect of higher pressures on a rider's power output. For those of you that may not be familiar with it, Whitt & Wilson addressed the topic of vibrational frequency as it relates to a rider's power output (see Bicycling Science for the complete article). One of their findings that may surprise some was the significant reduction in power output as your muscles absorb the vibration imparted to the bike-rider system. While this seems logical enough, the magnitude of the decrease in power output was somewhat surprising (at least to me).

Sorry if that kind of rambled around a bit, but I wanted to cover a few different aspects of this discussion. Obviously, in a perfect world, this would be much more cut and dry than it is, but such is life.

Also, to the OP, I forgot to mention that the 606 per se does not exist anymore. With the new models we introduced last year, we ended up with something on the order of 297 different combinations of wheels, and coming up with groovy numerical codes for each of those was going to be a chore. You can still get the front 404/rear 808 combination, it just falls under the heading of our "Speed Shop" program, so you'll get some extra special decals if you decide to go that route. Just an FYI in case you run into confusion should you talk to a shop or one of our customer service representatives.

Last edited by Waldo; 06-15-08 at 05:23 PM. Reason: Big pictures had to go bye bye.
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Old 06-15-08, 06:09 PM
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Thanks for the input. Last post was very very complete. Thanks again. Now I need to find a dealer who will haggle or use E-BAY. May also conisder getting ZIPPs with my CERVELO P2C as a package deal.

Edit: I do not plan on buying both tubulars & clinchers.

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Old 06-15-08, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by BILL_W_WV

Edit: I do not plan on buying both tubulars & clinchers.
Wu$$y.
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Old 06-15-08, 07:35 PM
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You live in WV, and most of your riding will be on the flats?

If you really want to do your best in TT's and triathlons, forget the 404's and get an 808 front, or trispoke, and a disc rear, and just keep training on what you currently ride.

404's ae nice wheels but not really TT wheels.
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Old 06-15-08, 07:55 PM
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Wow. Great post waldo.
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Old 06-16-08, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
You live in WV, and most of your riding will be on the flats?

If you really want to do your best in TT's and triathlons, forget the 404's and get an 808 front, or trispoke, and a disc rear, and just keep training on what you currently ride.

I used to live in West Virginia however due to economic challenges in West Virginia I had to move to Virginia. Set up one of my road bikes with a triple for steep hills. Not sure I really need it anymore, but I am more comfortable using a triple on steep hills.

PCAD I apprecaite your input. Funny comment about the wu$$y - about spending money yes I am.
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Old 06-16-08, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BILL_W_WV
PCAD I apprecaite your input. Funny comment about the wu$$y - about spending money yes I am.
Billy, the way things are going with gas prices and inflation, we may all be wu$$y soon.
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Old 06-16-08, 05:17 PM
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Waldo, excellent post.

I agree with the imperfections in pavement providing for irregularities between lab and actual test data, but how would a latex tube deform more readily than a butyl? Is it friction between the tube and tire or simply the minute difference in material thickness? Both tubes seem plenty pliable without pressure so it's hard for me to imagine the difference under pressure.

Maybe the stress-strain hysteresis curve's are significantly different for the two materials?
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Old 06-16-08, 07:15 PM
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Hocam, you're onto something in that it's not purely the elastic properties of the tube material that are the critical factor with latex tubes. What I stated was a bit of an over-simplification, and the hysteresis is definitely a factor that needs to be considered. The hysteresis involved with the adhesive on tubies can also significantly alter results, which is where this sort of testing becomes fun. Sorry for the vagaries here, but there's not really much more I can say before the tire people snatch me up and confine me on some beautiful tropical island for the rest of my life.
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Old 06-17-08, 11:43 AM
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Haven't forgotten you, Waldo/OP. Give me a couple of days to reply and I'll post something up.
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Old 06-17-08, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Waldo
Hocam, you're onto something in that it's not purely the elastic properties of the tube material that are the critical factor with latex tubes. What I stated was a bit of an over-simplification, and the hysteresis is definitely a factor that needs to be considered. The hysteresis involved with the adhesive on tubies can also significantly alter results, which is where this sort of testing becomes fun. Sorry for the vagaries here, but there's not really much more I can say before the tire people snatch me up and confine me on some beautiful tropical island for the rest of my life.
Blah, that doesn't help!
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