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Greg may have a point

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Greg may have a point

Old 07-06-08, 08:42 PM
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Greg may have a point

https://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news;_ylt...ters&type=lgns

I can't really disagree.
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Old 07-06-08, 08:51 PM
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wtf...

“It is all very well to try and export cycling by launching Tours in Russia and China but cycling is the Tour de France and you don’t export the Tour,” LeMond said.
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Old 07-06-08, 08:52 PM
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NHL had some restructuring a few years ago, but that stuff actually made headlines since the players cared.

why would the riders make a racing league where they can't dope?
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Old 07-06-08, 08:54 PM
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He's got two good points:

Originally Posted by Yahoo Sports
The UCI is just there to stamp licenses and make the regulations. The solution for cycling is very simple: organizers and riders should create their own federation and take over the sport,” added LeMond, known for his strong stance against doping.
Originally Posted by Yahoo Sports
Since the Tour, the Giro d’Italia and the Spanish Vuelta opted out of the UCI’s ProTour series, launched three years ago, the UCI has been looking into expanding the range of international events by launching Tours in Russia and China.
Don't work with the Tour or Giro organizers and, well people will eventually opt out of you...
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Old 07-06-08, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AEO View Post

why would the riders make a racing league where they can't dope?
Unless pro cycling gets a handle on doping the business model unravels. Sponsors won't touch the sport if this issue isn't resolved. I'd say that gives pro cycling the most compelling motivation of any major sport to get clean.

That's why.
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Old 07-06-08, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
Unless pro cycling gets a handle on doping the business model unravels. Sponsors won't touch the sport if this issue isn't resolved. I'd say that gives pro cycling the most compelling motivation of any major sport to get clean.

That's why.
Good point, if UCI/makers/sponsors had some integrity like FIA/makers/sponsers did in the 80's turbo craze, they would crack down on doping.
The sport would become boring for the few years that follow, but if FIA proved anything, it's that the sport is cleaner, safer and even more entertaining than it's predecessors which had no intervention.
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Old 07-06-08, 09:45 PM
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I'd bet on ASO. The business tie-in with AEG was a pretty strong move IMHO.

When Anschutz's firm (AEG) comes to the table, the big boys listen. The Tour of California/ASO deal could just be the start of a good long run by AEG. Big players with big ideas.
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Old 07-06-08, 09:48 PM
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This is how I see it: if somebody as high profile with as strong a team as Lance Armstrong was unable to get a major US corporation (Nike, Apple, HP, etc) to sponsor an American pro cycling team, it is primarily because they are AFRAID OF DOPING SCANDALS. If the best anybody can do in the USA to attract a sponsor is get 3rd tier companies like Garmin and Columbia Sportswear it is because the Big Boys (with the deepest pockets) are AFRAID OF DOPING SCANDALS.

You clean up the sport and that will improve. If you don't the sport is F'd. They don't sell tickets to pro cycling events. The whole business model, 90% of the revenue stream relies on companies like Festina and T-Mobile with their sponsorship money and they are dropping the sport like a hot potato. Get it clean and credible and they will return.

As a cycling fan, that's why I care about cleaning up the sport. Either everybody ignores doping or you get it under complete control. Either way. But the current uncertainly must end, and quickly. I see the Columbia and Garmin aggressive independent testing programs and clean team culture the only real potentially effective solution. I would be amazed if every team hasn't gone that route within a couple of years. If I was a sponsor I would demand it immediately.

All this pontificating and moralizing over dopers being 'cheaters' misses the point entirely. It's much bigger than that. Sports on this level is a business, and the business model is broken unless a clean competitive environment can be established and enforced. I don't see any other way than the approach these two teams are taking. The UCI and TdF organizers have proven it's beyond their capabilities. I think the employers (the team) and their sponsors demanding extreme transparency and a doping free culture is the only way forward.

Last edited by patentcad; 07-06-08 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 07-06-08, 10:56 PM
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Like most pcad posts I skipped most of that....but I seemed to agree with what I did read.

In general I believe the UCI is f'd unless it puts its tail between it's legs and does something to reconcile with ASO. ASO is running the show. Literally. Without the tour there is no show for anyone outside of the small collection of weenies that actually care about any other race.

Putting the smack down on Astana is ASO showing that they can and will do what the f they want. Total politics. Something more to that one and seemingly targeting JB. Little to nothing to do with doping. Well at least the doping reasons cited.

Haven't even watched any of the tour yet. I was traveling.

Funny thing is....for the first time in many years....I am not racing down to see what's on the DVR. I actually don't care. Don't even know for sure if it is recording.

I am sure I am not along and that is a bad thing for professional cycling.

Then again...meh
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Old 07-06-08, 11:44 PM
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Did anybody see Bob Roll's face when they were "interviewing" Greg right before stage 2 of the TdF today?

He had the look of someone who realized somebody had just farted...
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Old 07-07-08, 05:32 AM
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Cheating, in some form or other, in cycling is unavoidable without draconian control measures that suck the life out of the event. Track racing was hugely popular in the 1890's until rampant cheating destroyed credibility of the sport. No good ways to eliminate cheating have developed, as is seen in the bizarre structure of Keirin racing in Japan.

The excitement of human (or horse) competition that is the basis for interest in racing is always going to be subject to someone trying to gain an "unfair" advantage.
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Old 07-07-08, 05:55 AM
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LeMond is making a last ditch effort at relevance...

Go away Greg. We're tired of listening to your bullsh*t....
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Old 07-07-08, 06:03 AM
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somehow I don't he cares much about what you think. personally I find him entertaining at the very least - though at times its in the same manner as a car wreck would hold your interest.
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Old 07-07-08, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by entukay View Post
wtf...

“It is all very well to try and export cycling by launching Tours in Russia and China but cycling is the Tour de France and you don’t export the Tour,” LeMond said.
care to elaborate?
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Old 07-07-08, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by damocles1 View Post
LeMond is making a last ditch effort at relevance...

Go away Greg. We're tired of listening to your bullsh*t....
It's not BS. It's the truth. The problem with Greg is that he doesn't know when to STFU, and attacking Lance just undermined his public image and credibility. Which is more the pity, because what LeMond has to say about doping is quite relevant. Particularly if cycling wants to remain a viable pro sport.

While I do think it would be better at times and in his own overwhelming interest to be more diplomatic about how he delivers his anti-doping message, it is one that pro cycling ignores at its own peril.
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Old 07-07-08, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Terex View Post
Cheating, in some form or other, in cycling is unavoidable without draconian control measures that suck the life out of the event. Track racing was hugely popular in the 1890's until rampant cheating destroyed credibility of the sport. No good ways to eliminate cheating have developed, as is seen in the bizarre structure of Keirin racing in Japan.

The excitement of human (or horse) competition that is the basis for interest in racing is always going to be subject to someone trying to gain an "unfair" advantage.
There's cheating and then there's cheating. To use a popular example NASCAR crew chiefs live by the "if you ain't cheating, you ain't racing" credo. However, most of their cheating is fiddling with aerodynamics or "forgetting" to put on an oil cover. Small things that can benefit a car but not completely skew the results. In the NFL receivers push off, linemen hold and everyone is pushing the rules. In the NBA if the dunk is impressive a 3rd or even 4th step is OK. This is all "cheating" but the fans don't mind at all. A similar offense would be trying to slip an underweight bike into a climbing stage. No one, or at least very few, will get worked up over that.

Doping is different. It'd be similar to running an oversize engine in a NASCAR race (though that has happened). It'd create such a clear advantage that the results can't be trusted. As I recall, fixed results help doom pro racing in the US in the early 1900s. Patrons didn't know if their rider lost b/c the other guy was faster or if he was following directions. People lost trust and then they lost interest. Soon after that a very popular nationwide sport was dead. That's why I agree with LeMond and (gulp) Pcad. Cycling has to get to a point where the fans can trust the results, even if they're not happy with them. It appears the UCI can't do that and it may be time for them to step aside.


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Old 07-07-08, 06:12 AM
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He is certainly the type to speak his mind. Whether he rubs people the wrong way or not, he is entitled to his opinion. McQuaid shouldn't dismiss him out of hand.
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Old 07-07-08, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DScott View Post
Did anybody see Bob Roll's face?
He had the look of someone who realized somebody had just farted...
How close was he standing to the camera man? Those guys are notorious.


Originally Posted by Walter View Post
To use a popular example NASCAR crew chiefs live by the "if you ain't cheating, you ain't racing"
I thought their credo was "If you can catch me, you can have me."

Originally Posted by Namenda View Post
He is certainly the type to speak his mind. Whether he rubs people the wrong way or not, he is entitled to his opinion. McQuaid shouldn't dismiss him out of hand.
He has to. He wants to save his job.

Originally Posted by AEO View Post
why would the riders make a racing league where they can't dope?
Oh brother.
I'll give you Frankie Andreu's phone number and let him explain it to you.
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Old 07-07-08, 07:00 AM
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Baseball, football, soccer, tennis, they may be able to get away with some doping and still have a healthy revenue stream. But for cycling, I think it's Get Clean or Die. At least from a business standpoint. I'll leave the handwringing over cheaters to some of the other boys here.

Pcad follows the money.
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Old 07-07-08, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
AFRAID OF DOPING SCANDALS.

You clean up the sport and that will improve. If you don't the sport is F'd. They don't sell tickets to pro cycling events. The whole business model, 90% of the revenue stream relies on companies like Festina and T-Mobile with their sponsorship money and they are dropping the sport like a hot potato. Get it clean and credible and they will return.
+1

Nothing happens without sponsors in cycling. I think some of the pros are actually figuring that part out. The possibility that doping will hit the riders directly in their bank accounts is beginning to have an effect. Their contracts don't magically appear, they come as a result of sponsors money. I am hopeful that cycling is finally "getting it" as far as doping goes. There will always be cheating but I think it will be greatly reduced in the future.
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Old 07-07-08, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
Baseball, football, soccer, tennis, they may be able to get away with some doping and still have a healthy revenue stream. But for cycling, I think it's Get Clean or Die. At least from a business standpoint. I'll leave the handwringing over cheaters to some of the other boys here.

Pcad follows the money.
Baseball has lived through many scandals, it always will. The demand and support for it is American. While we may love the fact that Lance and other Americans have won, I don't think that the rest of the world gives a crap about us, let alone likes it. Most people don't know anything about competitive cycling other than the fact that Lance won. It's a small world you guys live in. America isn't ready to embrace it any more than soccer or the wnba. And because of that, what an American has to say about it holds little weight.
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Old 07-07-08, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Tulex View Post
Baseball has lived through many scandals, it always will. The demand and support for it is American. While we may love the fact that Lance and other Americans have won, I don't think that the rest of the world gives a crap about us, let alone likes it. Most people don't know anything about competitive cycling other than the fact that Lance won. It's a small world you guys live in. America isn't ready to embrace it any more than soccer or the wnba. And because of that, what an American has to say about it holds little weight.
It's not about America's love for cycling. It's about the corporate world's attraction to cycling. I'm not talking about how popular cycling is in America. Separate issue. I'm talking about the survival of the business of pro cycling in general, which is a very popular sport in Europe.
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Old 07-07-08, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
Baseball, football, soccer, tennis, they may be able to get away with some doping and still have a healthy revenue stream. But for cycling, I think it's Get Clean or Die. At least from a business standpoint. I'll leave the handwringing over cheaters to some of the other boys here.

Pcad follows the money.
Organized sports have the benefit of an established fan bases which are loyal to the clubs they support, so they can weather the storm of scandals. From a business perspective sponsors might feel a bit safer knowing people won't react adversely to scandal because of their loyalty to club and sport, cycling however doesn't have the same dynamic and doesn't benefit from stadium attendance or merchandizing. For a sponsor there is a higher risk because a scandal throws their name into the mix of a scandal and no one wants that association.
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Old 07-07-08, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
It's not about America's love for cycling. It's about the corporate world's attraction to cycling. I'm not talking about how popular cycling is in America. Separate issue. I'm talking about the survival of the business of pro cycling in general, which is a very popular sport in Europe.
That's my point. Why would American companies want to invest in a sport that isn't watched by Americans? Is there a huge presence of American sponsors in Soccer? If there is, I don't know about it. And I can't imagine that Europe wants anything to do with sharing the popularity with America. Quite frankly, I think it pisses them off that Americans go over there and take their medals. It would be like them coming over here and taking our world series. We are not going to let that happen.

The popularity has everything to do with it.
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Old 07-07-08, 08:03 AM
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>> Why would American companies want to invest in a sport that isn't watched by Americans?<<

Many large US corporations (Nike, Apple, HP and Microsoft for instance) do a HUGE amount of business in markets where cycling is wildly popular, that's why.
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