Richard Sachs Ending New Orders
07-17-08, 10:11 PM
#126
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It takes 30+ hours to fabricate a custom racing frame and fork. A straight race bike is as basic as it gets. Another 8 to 30+ hours for paint depending on the level of fanciness.
A custom stem adds another day. Custom racks (for a touring or commuter bike) can add another week+. Sometimes there are custom bags, plus any other special touches on the frame itself.
There is also a half a day spent with a client for a fit session and another handful of hours to dial in the details with them. The design process takes from 1-8 hours depending on the complexity of the project. There is also paint scheme design.
Another aspect that I doubt anyone here is factoring in is that to run a framebuilding business means that less than 50% of the work hours go into the framebuilding and the majority goes into the business end of things.
So figure 50ish frames per year. It's very easy to get a backlog. 5 years for instance is only 250 people. Really nothing in the grand scheme of things and it definitely doesn't seem like it warrants all of the drama that it ignites.
And before anyone tells me "you should hire more people", you should know that I have. I give my employees as much responsibility as I can, but only so many tasks can be given away before a builder is not a builder anymore. That is the line in the sand for me.
If there is anything I can clarify, I would be happy to.
-Sacha
A custom stem adds another day. Custom racks (for a touring or commuter bike) can add another week+. Sometimes there are custom bags, plus any other special touches on the frame itself.
There is also a half a day spent with a client for a fit session and another handful of hours to dial in the details with them. The design process takes from 1-8 hours depending on the complexity of the project. There is also paint scheme design.
Another aspect that I doubt anyone here is factoring in is that to run a framebuilding business means that less than 50% of the work hours go into the framebuilding and the majority goes into the business end of things.
So figure 50ish frames per year. It's very easy to get a backlog. 5 years for instance is only 250 people. Really nothing in the grand scheme of things and it definitely doesn't seem like it warrants all of the drama that it ignites.
And before anyone tells me "you should hire more people", you should know that I have. I give my employees as much responsibility as I can, but only so many tasks can be given away before a builder is not a builder anymore. That is the line in the sand for me.
If there is anything I can clarify, I would be happy to.
-Sacha
As for 5 years being too long, that's up to the buyer to decide. Some apparently feel it's worth the wait. I have my own bikes to ride & don't need any more.
How long to build a frame ?? Depends. Maybe RS could build 1 a day. But maybe he also wants to ride, or go fishing, or spend 2 hours cooking good meals, or walk the dog ..... I have no idea. But he should be able to set his schedule and build frames in whatever timetable works for him.
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Last edited by Homebrew01; 07-17-08 at 10:22 PM.
07-17-08, 10:39 PM
#127
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07-17-08, 10:46 PM
#128
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I can take someone's colon out. You never said the patient has to live.
07-17-08, 10:56 PM
#129
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I still think I could be taught how to build a frame if I had a few years to do it, but I'm quite sure it wouldn't be anywhere near what you or Sachs or any other master builder can do... As in surgery, there's still something innate about the true masters that goes beyond what you can teach. And until you see and can appreciate the subtleties, you can't tell the difference, because the end result for the patient isn't always all that noticeable.
I think it's still my "a great bike now is better than a spectacular bike in 5 years" bias. And that's not to say that I'd build a great bike--I'd buy one.
And 8000 posts on BF just makes you an expert on wasting time, not frame building. Trust me--that much I know.
I think it's still my "a great bike now is better than a spectacular bike in 5 years" bias. And that's not to say that I'd build a great bike--I'd buy one.
And 8000 posts on BF just makes you an expert on wasting time, not frame building. Trust me--that much I know.
you can be taught. Heck, a guy I went to college with built his own frame in the mid to late 90s. He was a former pro and decided he wanted to build himself a frame. He learned how to do it and it was awesome. I finally got to see it "briefly" at a century ride we both were at. he rode away from the main group like we were nothing. He's a freaking weapon. I looked at it closely later and it was a lugged columbus steel bike (I forget the grade of steel) but it was clean. He had a custom painter do the paint and guess what rad? He said it took about 5 weeks to get it back.
If I ever want another steel frame, I'm going to learn to do it myself. A friend and I both want to do it. just for us.
07-17-08, 11:01 PM
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I can assure everyone here that Mr. Sachs is aware of this thread. This certainly isn't the first time the topic of a long wait has come up on a bike forum and it appears that Mr. Sachs does like to monitor these "discussions". If it's civilized and somewhat meaningful, he will sometimes participate. If its full of lunkhead comments like this thread, he understandably will just sit back and watch.
55/Rad
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I'm going to the Lance threads. I bet he shows up too!
07-17-08, 11:33 PM
#131
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So says the guy who bought a frame (you forgot to mention Taiwan) then publicly asked if it was a good decision. Very "man-like".
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07-17-08, 11:36 PM
#132
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07-17-08, 11:40 PM
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07-18-08, 12:30 AM
#134
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I like how one of the frame builder guys that name got mentioned comes on here and posts some facts about his brand.
very good I think.
he doesn't mention having to "get it", or isn't pushing it on anybody. He doesn't refer you to the hand mabe bike show or anything like that. I'm sure his stuff sells itself.
it's more the owners of said bikes that have their kncikers in a knot.
I have new and old bikes, japanese, german and italian tube sets, some lugged & some welded. Most of them are new (less than 5-10 years).
My daily bike is ALU/Carbon and it rides better and is more comfy than any of the others.
So, I still have the old ones that get the looks, I just don't get upset when some one isn't in to it on the internet. I don't really have much attachment to them either.
I think some of you guys are a little bit consumer and or brand crazy.
very good I think.
he doesn't mention having to "get it", or isn't pushing it on anybody. He doesn't refer you to the hand mabe bike show or anything like that. I'm sure his stuff sells itself.
it's more the owners of said bikes that have their kncikers in a knot.
I have new and old bikes, japanese, german and italian tube sets, some lugged & some welded. Most of them are new (less than 5-10 years).
My daily bike is ALU/Carbon and it rides better and is more comfy than any of the others.
So, I still have the old ones that get the looks, I just don't get upset when some one isn't in to it on the internet. I don't really have much attachment to them either.
I think some of you guys are a little bit consumer and or brand crazy.
07-18-08, 02:17 AM
#135
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Why is everyone so sensitive? This is business. There's no reason for anyone to get bent out of shape over a few nerds arguing on the internet. The builders mentioned here have been around a long time and obviously have reputations solid enough to warrant 5-6 year waiting lists. That is well known and speaks for itself. They don't need white knights.
Most of us fall into two camps; utilitarians and those who value a bicycle in ways other than price/performance. As one of the former, I'd argue that building frames may require innate talent and time to master the nuances of fabrication, but it is not directly comparable to performing surgery in any reasonable manner. This isn't a dig on anyone, but logistical reality. I don't consider the build process as beyond my realm of comprehension, but as has been pointed out, I'll never be more than an armchair quarterback.
The sole topic of contention here is the desire to purchase a high end product only to wait an eternity for a relatively small amount of the builder's time (at least not when there are product substitutes so readily available). It represents a ludicrous proposition by most consumer standards, hence the reason for debate. Some are defending the practice as they perceive compensatory aesthetic or other intangible value in a Vanilla or RS frame, but some would rather purchase whatever BD is currently peddling and be done with it. It's a spectrum of personal preference and that's it.
Most of us fall into two camps; utilitarians and those who value a bicycle in ways other than price/performance. As one of the former, I'd argue that building frames may require innate talent and time to master the nuances of fabrication, but it is not directly comparable to performing surgery in any reasonable manner. This isn't a dig on anyone, but logistical reality. I don't consider the build process as beyond my realm of comprehension, but as has been pointed out, I'll never be more than an armchair quarterback.
The sole topic of contention here is the desire to purchase a high end product only to wait an eternity for a relatively small amount of the builder's time (at least not when there are product substitutes so readily available). It represents a ludicrous proposition by most consumer standards, hence the reason for debate. Some are defending the practice as they perceive compensatory aesthetic or other intangible value in a Vanilla or RS frame, but some would rather purchase whatever BD is currently peddling and be done with it. It's a spectrum of personal preference and that's it.
07-18-08, 02:46 AM
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It's not about craftsmanship per se, but rather the idea that art generally has meaning behind it while craft has function behind it. Conceptual art compared to weaving is a good example of this.
07-18-08, 05:50 AM
#137
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Like White I don't really see the drama. The Vanilla and RS websites both state price and wait time. I can read this information and then make my choice.
My choice right now is "No" and that is based more on price than wait. If I were to do this I'd take the "in for a penny, in for a pound" approach and get a Vanilla with custom lugs and dropouts.
The penny is OK but the pound is out of reach....
Otherwise, I've spent far more time with very good surgeons (neurosurgeons in this case, my colon is just fine, thank you) than I've ever wanted to. Because of this I can talk intelligently, even with surgeons, about brachial plexus injuries but certainly don't pretend my "expertise" goes any further than that, nor is it ever likely to.
Learning to braze a frame is alot more likely but probably won't happen either.
Fortunately there are builders and surgeons around for when such wants (and necessities) arise.
Ramble ends here.
My choice right now is "No" and that is based more on price than wait. If I were to do this I'd take the "in for a penny, in for a pound" approach and get a Vanilla with custom lugs and dropouts.
The penny is OK but the pound is out of reach....
Otherwise, I've spent far more time with very good surgeons (neurosurgeons in this case, my colon is just fine, thank you) than I've ever wanted to. Because of this I can talk intelligently, even with surgeons, about brachial plexus injuries but certainly don't pretend my "expertise" goes any further than that, nor is it ever likely to.
Learning to braze a frame is alot more likely but probably won't happen either.
Fortunately there are builders and surgeons around for when such wants (and necessities) arise.
Ramble ends here.
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07-18-08, 07:34 AM
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reading comprehension must be lacking. The keyword is MAJORITY.
Having a frame 95% painted for what? 8 months and sitting there for what? 2-3 years now is oh so awesome. I had my entire car painted in 3 weeks.
Take a chapter out of the guy who got tired of waiting for his bike at the same place yours is. He didn't pull this passive stance.
07-18-08, 07:42 AM
#139
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If I had the money I would totally get on the list for one of these bikes. Sure I will buy something else in the mean time but after a few years of riding that I would be ready for something else anyway.
07-18-08, 07:43 AM
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Do these frame builders ever do frame building work shops? I would enjoy learn the process and building my own frame.
07-18-08, 07:46 AM
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07-18-08, 07:56 AM
#142
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Having a frame 95% painted for what? 8 months and sitting there for what? 2-3 years now is oh so awesome. I had my entire car painted in 3 weeks. Take a chapter out of the guy who got tired of waiting for his bike at the same place yours is. He didn't pull this passive stance.
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07-18-08, 08:05 AM
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07-18-08, 09:26 AM
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....special little hands.....
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07-18-08, 09:34 AM
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07-18-08, 09:41 AM
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...but I'll give you a
for the hip u-toob link as a response.
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07-18-08, 09:42 AM
#147
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
I am a pretty utilitarian cyclist, appreciate anything that has been finely wrought, and aspire to build my own frames...which will probably lean more toward commuting and utilitarian purposes.
Vanilla cycles are extravagant in their workmanship while Sachs frames are rather understated (elegantly so) which does not detract from their beauty or value and also means that an immense amount of handwork has to go into to either.
Vanilla cycles are extravagant in their workmanship while Sachs frames are rather understated (elegantly so) which does not detract from their beauty or value and also means that an immense amount of handwork has to go into to either.
07-18-08, 09:48 AM
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07-18-08, 12:23 PM
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It was educational and entertaining to me to work in a frame building shop with one of the most reputable builders in this country. I am fully aware of what I speak, and didn't google it; I lived it. But then, if you had any real knowledge of the frame building profession, you'd be able to tell that, because everything I posted is dead on accurate. Sacha's claim that it takes 30 hours to build one of his frames may be the case because there is massive custom filing and brazing that goes into his finished product. But a standard frame brazed up with investment cast lugs in a standard size takes no more than a day.
Frame alignment alone has multiple phases throughout the building process and takes a combined 3+ hours for me and my assistant. If someone wanted to skip processes like this, and proper lug fit up for a good, strong, straight joint (another 1-3 hours) and any number of other steps that make a frame Excellent, then the frames could be put out in a shorter amount of time.
The 10 hour frame is not what I am here to build though, and it's not what people come to me for.
-Sacha
07-18-08, 12:33 PM
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Maybe you need to take more photos of bikes. That seems to be productive.
You're just sore that you can't man up enough to go get your frame.
Forgive me if I don't answer for ohh...a week or more. I'm off to go RIDE.