Bob Dopolina 

I was getting my bi-monthly blood test done today, and talking to my doctor about the upcoming Olympics and the Tour. He mentioned about the positives, and we talked about CERA and how it works. Then he told me something pretty interesting.

He claims that the Mainland Chinese athletes use an herbal extract that is derived from a plant that sprouts from a worm that burrows into the soil. Once this extract was actually tested it was found to have properties, and stimulate responses that were quite similar to anabolic steroids. The athletes claim to have strength increase but not the bulking and water retention associated with anabolic steroids.

Furthermore this extract is not banned and no test exists for it.

He also claimed that there were no known side effects and that the worst that could happen was that you could buy a poorly manufactured product and the benefits would be nil.

To top it off, everything he told me was seconded by another doctor who had joined the conversation.

Keep in mind that this is coming from a doctor who runs a respectable clinic and not some guy hanging out in the locker room of a gym.

So my question is this; If you could take a technically legal, but morally suspect product, and suffer no ill effects would you?

NOTE: I am not pleading a case or looking for support so I can rationalize doping. At this point in my life it is quite out of the question and would serve no purpose whatsoever. I am simply fascinated by what I was told today by a reputable source.

wanders

A plant that sprouts from a worm? Sounds like a new classification. If it does all that you say, it will only be a matter of time before it is banned. Think cocaine. Herbal extract, plant derived.

DigitalRJH

Not sure how this product would be morally suspect? It seems to be a natuaral herbal supplement. What would the difference be in taking fish oil, creatine, Tribulus Terrestris Extract (natural testosterone booster), or even Sport Legs for that matter? As long as it was legal, and no known dangerous health side effects, personally I would take it.

Surferbruce

no bad side effects or health issues, i would try it. i've always like trying supplements, and if i could find something that would boost testosterone levels a bit to aid recovery i'd be on it. i've tried lots of stuff out there, but not many that really do much.
i currently use good whey protein, mutivitamin, fish oil, cla, and vitamin d.
if i could find a legal way to use something like anavar under a docs supervision i'd be very interested to see what a cycle or two was like, but won't do it illegally or on my own.
you've got me curious though.

jamiewilson3

Agreed. It is no different than caffeine, honey, or gels, IMO.

TheJackMove

Were they trying to sell you some of this supplement? Do they have any interest in companies that produce or sell it?

What is it called?

Bob Dopolina 

Keep in mind that this conversation was being held in Chinese and some of the vocabulary I didn't understand.

The plant from a worm thing I still find a bit baffling. There has to be something else to it but we got off on a tangent and I never asked him to be more specific about this.

big john

At my age, (54), I'd love something that could help recovery and strength. Wouldn't want side effects, though.
Bi-monthly blood tests? Diabetic?

Bob Dopolina 

When I ride in big heat I have trouble storing iron. I was anemic in '97. It costs me about 35 cents US for a series of tests (socialized medicine here).

Pugsly

Surferbruce

when you consider lsd, one of the most potent substances known, comes from a fungus that grows only on rye, it's not a stretch to think something like you describe could exist.

dutret

Sounds like bs and without knowing the specific chemical and it's mechanism of action I don't think you could be sure it was legal.

wanders

Forgot about the original question.

Yes. I would take it. With a side of cobra heart and the gall bladder of a bear.
I currently get significant results/placebo effect from fish oil, endurox, l-glutamine and ibuprofen.

big john

Interesting. How do you deal with the iron issue? Do you have to take extra iron? A doctor once told me I was slightly anemic and suggested I eat a lot more leafy greens.
I also have two friends, both in their 60s, one a former masters champion, who have trouble with extreme heat, but didn't just a few years ago.

Bob Dopolina 

冬蟲夏草 - cordyceps sinensis

https://www.raysahelian.com/cordyceps.html

In vivo stimulatory effect of Cordyceps sinensis mycelium and its fractions on reproductive functions in male mouse.
Life Sci. 2004 Jul 16;75(9):1051-62.
Cordyceps sinensis, an Ascomycetes fungus parasitic to Lepidoptera larvae, has been traditionally used as nutritious food for the enhancement on sexual performance and the restitution of impairment in sexual function in Chinese society. We have previously demonstrated the stimulatory effect of Cordyceps sinensis and its fractions on steroidogenesis both on primary mouse Leydig cells and MA-10 mouse Leydig tumor cells. In the present studies, we determined the in vivo effects of Cordyceps sinensis and its fractions on steroidogenesis in mouse. Different concentrations of CS and Cordyceps sinensis fractions (0.02 and 0.2 mg/g body weight) were fed to immature or mature mice from 1 to 7 days. The plasma levels of testosterone were evaluated by radioimmunoassay. The weights of reproductive organs were also determined. Results illustrated that Cordyceps sinensis significantly induced plasma testosterone levels both in immature and mature mice in 3 and/or 7 days treatment (p < 0.05). F2 and F3 at 0.02 and/or 0.2 mg/g body weight for different feeding duration could also significantly stimulated plasma testosterone levels both in immature and mature mice. In general, Cordyceps sinensis, F2 and F3 didn't have considerable effect on the weights of reproductive organs. Taken together, these studies illustrate that Cordyceps sinensis and its fractions significantly stimulated in vivo mouse testosterone production.

Bob Dopolina 

Regular tests help me monitor things. I do the usual dietary stuff but if I sense trouble on the horizon I get an IV bag of D5W with 80mg elemental iron.

It's fast absorption and it does the trick.

wanders

A fungus parasitic to a larvae. Tastes like chicken?

gfrance

What kind of doctor do you go to that he has this kind of esoteric information? A shaman, a witchdoctor?

CastIron

Um, no thanks.

Bob Dopolina 

A doctor in Taiwan...A Chinese speaking doctor...in a place that still uses a lot of traditional Chinese medicine...

ElJamoquio

Sure. Except in the case of things like CERA, which might not have had a chance to be banned yet, USCF legal/not-legal is my go/no-go gauge.

ElJamoquio

And obviously, this is the stuff that goes in Optygen, etc. Too expensive for me, but hey, it's your money.

Hobartlemagne 

Wow- If that really worked, just imagine how well you could ride after eating those dehydrated tiger testicles!

merlinextraligh

No the worst that could happen is you get stuff that's contaminated and you die. All this supplement stuff is hardly regulated. Not that many years ago a bunch of people died from contaminated L Tryptophan supplements.

Bob Dopolina 

I guess for me it is all about intent.

I know it is a grey area but I think supplements or protein powders are just convenient substitutes to give your body what it needs to continue doing what it is already doing. You're not altering your body chemistry or stimulating processes that wouldn't normally occur.

With something like this the only reason to do it is to alter your natural state to gain a competitive advantage. This, for me, is where things become morally suspect. I ask myself if the anti-drug forces knew about it would it be something that they would develop a test for and eventually ban?