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Does the type of carbon really make a difference?
Hello everyone,
I'm new here, so I'll make my question brief. I'm in the market for a new carbon fiber bike, and I've noticed that there are many types of CF out there. Many are 3k, while others are 6k, 12k and even 18k. I know that this represents the how many strands of fiber there are per thread. My question is: does the more K equal stronger fiber? The BD Immortal bikes use 3K, while the BD Century bikes use Torya m30s which is I think 18k. I notice that Specalized upgrades there fiber every so often. Now, I already know that you can make the bike lighter by using the higher K fiber, but is it just as stiff and will it last as long? Thanks everyone. |
3K refers to the type of cosmetic weave that you see on the exterior of the frame or component.
The only differences between a 12k weave and a 1k weave is how much they cost, how much they weigh and what they look like. The lower the number, the smaller the weave pattern and the lighter/more expensive the material is. What you are trying to get into is the type of structural carbon fibre that is used in the frame. |
I did some reading about this a while back... I forget all the numbers.. something like M30S or T700 or whatever. I am sure there are some materials guys on here who can talk about it.. I'm curious as well.
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Originally Posted by ehidle
(Post 7209194)
I did some reading about this a while back... I forget all the numbers.. something like M30S or T700 or whatever. I am sure there are some materials guys on here who can talk about it.. I'm curious as well.
What is more important to the use of carbon fiber in bicycles are the exact values of its weight, strength and modulus. The Modulus of Elasticity (I'll just call it modulus), is how much the material stretches when stressed. This value is directly related to how stiff the material is. A high modulus material like Toray's M40 carbon fiber is very elastic and resilient compared to Toray's M30S carbon fiber, which is much stiffer and stronger in tension and torsion. Because the M30S fibers are stiffer, they are more likely to break when they are stressed to much. The M40 fibers will continue to stretch while not breaking when they reach their threshold. It is possible to deform high modulus fibres however. Modulus is measured in GPa (Gigapascals). High Modulus materials are in the 250-350 GPa range, while low modulus/high strength materials are in the 100-250 GPa range. Using a high modulus material reinforced by a low modulus/high strength material in certain areas is how most frames are constructed. Using high modulus fibres for the seatstays will allow them to bend and give a little when they are compressed. Conversely, using low modulus/high strength fibers in an area that sees a lot of torsion and tension, like the bottom bracket or headtube, will make that area of the frame stiffer than the high modulus material would. |
Originally Posted by BananaTugger
(Post 7209085)
3K refers to the type of cosmetic weave that you see on the exterior of the frame or component.
The only differences between a 12k weave and a 1k weave is how much they cost, how much they weigh and what they look like. The lower the number, the smaller the weave pattern and the lighter/more expensive the material is. What you are trying to get into is the type of structural carbon fibre that is used in the frame. Fibers are bundled in various sizes designated in thousands (K) of fibers. 1K, 3K, 6K, 12K, 24K, 50K and others are common bundle sizes. These fibers are woven into fabric with various weave patterns. 3K fabric is most common. The various types of fiber will have the same “K” designation to indicate the number of fibers in the bundle. These numbers describe the size of the bundle used and have little to do with the quality of the fiber itself. |
Originally Posted by BananaTugger
(Post 7209289)
M30S, T-700 and T-800 are simply manufacturer designations for that particular weight and modulus of carbon fibre.
What is more important to the use of carbon fiber in bicycles are the exact values of its weight, strength and modulus. The Modulus of Elasticity (I'll just call it modulus), is how much the material stretches when stressed. This value is directly related to how stiff the material is. A high modulus material like Toray's M40 carbon fiber is very elastic and resilient compared to Toray's M30S carbon fiber, which is much stiffer and stronger in tension and torsion. Because the M30S fibers are stiffer, they are more likely to break when they are stressed to much. The M40 fibers will continue to stretch while not breaking when they reach their threshold. It is possible to deform high modulus fibres however. Modulus is measured in GPa (Gigapascals). High Modulus materials are in the 250-350 GPa range, while low modulus/high strength materials are in the 100-250 GPa range. Using a high modulus material reinforced by a low modulus/high strength material in certain areas is how most frames are constructed. Using high modulus fibres for the seatstays will allow them to bend and give a little when they are compressed. Conversely, using low modulus/high strength fibers in an area that sees a lot of torsion and tension, like the bottom bracket or headtube, will make that area of the frame stiffer than the high modulus material would. |
Originally Posted by Banzai
(Post 7209352)
Incorrect.
Fibers are bundled in various sizes designated in thousands (K) of fibers. 1K, 3K, 6K, 12K, 24K, 50K and others are common bundle sizes. These fibers are woven into fabric with various weave patterns. 3K fabric is most common. The various types of fiber will have the same “K” designation to indicate the number of fibers in the bundle. These numbers describe the size of the bundle used and have little to do with the quality of the fiber itself. 12K weave is that big square looking stuff that was on Scott CR1 frames initially. Now everyone is using it, because it is cheaper. Also, 1K, 3K and 6K weaves are being sucked up by the people who make planes and other crap that doesn't pertain to cycling, which reduces its supply. |
Originally Posted by dalava
(Post 7209374)
Nomination for the most informative post of the day!
In fact, quite possibly the most informative post ever in the history of BF. it's even absent opinion or even a cheap shot at Freds, Poseurs, Wannabe Hipsters, and so on... |
Originally Posted by ehidle
(Post 7209798)
Second...
In fact, quite possibly the most informative post ever in the history of BF. it's even absent opinion or even a cheap shot at Freds, Poseurs, Wannabe Hipsters, and so on... |
To extend that logic, which types of carbon are best suited for bicycle frames (without respect to cost)?
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Thanks! You rock!
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Originally Posted by Booger
(Post 7209895)
To extend that logic, which types of carbon are best suited for bicycle frames (without respect to cost)?
This stuff will run for about $2500 for 10 ounces or so. A few manufacturers, or more precisely, frame builders, use this material in their frames, such as Spin, Crumpton and Storck. Giant also purchases raw T-800 fibres from Toray and weaves them into a 1K pattern for their TCR Advanced frames and forks. The unidirectional fibres would be layed into the mold with the fibres running along the length of the frame tubes. This would make for a very stiff, and depending on the method of molding and construction, very light frame. |
Originally Posted by BananaTugger
(Post 7209854)
I still hate and will continue to lambaste all of the above, so don't get your hopes up for a BF Renaissance or something.
Really an excellent post.........now, go out on a limb and rate the various bike manufacturers CF quality..........please. |
Originally Posted by sojourn
(Post 7210087)
We'll keep our hopes high & expectations low BT!
Really an excellent post.........now, go out on a limb and rate the various bike manufacturers CF quality..........please. As mentioned earier, boutique manufacturers like Spin, Crumpton, Tune, AX-Lightness, THM, Ruegamer, B-T-P and Schmolke, all of whom are in the business of making the lightest and strongest frames and components, will use the best carbon they can find for their purposes. Toray T-800, M30S and Stupid-High-Modulus M46J (We are talking $350/oz. for this stuff) is what these guys use for the premium gear. Companies like Pinarello, Time, Look, Colnago, Specialized, Cannondale, Felt, Giant, FSA, 3T and Ritchey will use a mix of T-700 and M30S fibres for their frames and components. It even says "Toray M30S" on the side of some of the frames these companies build. For lower end frames, you will find TR50S, TR30S, T-300 and T700 fibers. Maybe someone got crazy with some higher modulus pitch based IMS carbon fibres for a few medium range frames. I don't know what Trek or Zipp use, because they keep to themselves when purchasing and testing materials. |
The Pinarello Prince and Montello frames are made of M46J among other things, and they both retail for over $5000.
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Originally Posted by BananaTugger
(Post 7209404)
1K weave is hard to make because the pattern is so damn tiny. The material itself is prone to tearing and folding when being handled.
12K weave is that big square looking stuff that was on Scott CR1 frames initially. Now everyone is using it, because it is cheaper. Also, 1K, 3K and 6K weaves are being sucked up by the people who make planes and other crap that doesn't pertain to cycling, which reduces its supply. |
Originally Posted by Banzai
(Post 7210482)
Well, I only copied that directly from a paper that Craig Calfee wrote. But what does he know?
The smaller the bundle, the harder it is to manufacture and work with. Most of the structural carbon fibre used in frames is unidirectional, and the stuff that isn't is almost always 1K. |
Curious what types of fibers are used by Calfee and Parlee?
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Originally Posted by paul_858
(Post 7210555)
Curious what types of fibers are used by Calfee and Parlee?
I'm positive that it is unidirectional. |
BT said: "Argh.
As mentioned earier, boutique manufacturers like Spin, Crumpton, Tune, AX-Lightness, THM, Ruegamer, B-T-P and Schmolke, all of whom are" ........... What a guy! I don't care what Pcad says, you are all right in my book!.......for now.......probably... |
Curious where the Fuji bikes fit in here with their c4, c7 and c10(new in 09?) bikes
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Originally Posted by newsun
(Post 7210681)
Curious where the Fuji bikes fit in here with their c4, c7 and c10(new in 09?) bikes
Of course, being a proprietary material that belongs to a company, it would be pretty difficult to get a hold of this information. |
From Velonews Jack, Your question on modulus in composites, the answer applies to materials in general. Modulus (or more specifically Young’s Modulus) is the term used to describe a material’s ability to deform under the application of load. If a material deforms very little, the Modulus is thought, in a relative sense, to be high. Aluminum has a modulus of 10msi, Titanium’s modulus is 15msi and Steel is 30msi. As you can see aluminum is 1/3rd as stiff as steel so this is why aluminum frames have to be built using large diameter tubing to be competitive with the stiffness of steel frames. This is the only way to get the stiffness you need to make a nice riding bike using aluminum tubes.In composites, the term modulus holds the same meaning. The modulus is a relative indication of the stiffness of the particular fiber or component. This is an often-misused term in the context of your question. Sometimes manufactures will use a very small amount of high modulus fibers mixed in with the standard modulus fibers and call the unit a high modulus unit.In carbon fiber, there are numerous different moduli available as follows: Type Modulus (msi) Standard (S) -32 to 34Intermediate (IM) - 42 to 44High (HM) - 50 to 62Very High (VHM) - 100 to 130 The trade-off between the different modulus is the toughness and price. The higher you go in modulus the more brittle the material becomes. It is rarely justifiable to use 100 percent Intermediate or High modulus material in sporting goods, especially bicycle frames and components. Bicycle components benefit from longer fatigue life and greater toughness. We can design for stiffness by engineering larger diameter tubes and optimized orientation of the fibers, i.e. what we call the laminate schedule. The final result being a high performance affordable composite structural component. Finally, directly to your question, the industry in general uses approximately 95 percent standard modulus fiber, 4 percent intermediate and 1 percent high to very high modulus fibers.John Harrington Vice President- Bicycle Products Easton Sports |
Originally Posted by paul_858
(Post 7210730)
From Velonews Jack, Your question on modulus in composites, the answer applies to materials in general. Modulus (or more specifically Young’s Modulus) is the term used to describe a material’s ability to deform under the application of load. If a material deforms very little, the Modulus is thought, in a relative sense, to be high. Aluminum has a modulus of 10msi, Titanium’s modulus is 15msi and Steel is 30msi. As you can see aluminum is 1/3rd as stiff as steel so this is why aluminum frames have to be built using large diameter tubing to be competitive with the stiffness of steel frames. This is the only way to get the stiffness you need to make a nice riding bike using aluminum tubes.In composites, the term modulus holds the same meaning. The modulus is a relative indication of the stiffness of the particular fiber or component. This is an often-misused term in the context of your question. Sometimes manufactures will use a very small amount of high modulus fibers mixed in with the standard modulus fibers and call the unit a high modulus unit.In carbon fiber, there are numerous different moduli available as follows: Type Modulus (msi) Standard (S) -32 to 34Intermediate (IM) - 42 to 44High (HM) - 50 to 62Very High (VHM) - 100 to 130 The trade-off between the different modulus is the toughness and price. The higher you go in modulus the more brittle the material becomes. It is rarely justifiable to use 100 percent Intermediate or High modulus material in sporting goods, especially bicycle frames and components. Bicycle components benefit from longer fatigue life and greater toughness. We can design for stiffness by engineering larger diameter tubes and optimized orientation of the fibers, i.e. what we call the laminate schedule. The final result being a high performance affordable composite structural component. Finally, directly to your question, the industry in general uses approximately 95 percent standard modulus fiber, 4 percent intermediate and 1 percent high to very high modulus fibers.John Harrington Vice President- Bicycle Products Easton Sports soz |
Custom builders bikes are also tuneable for different ride feel to user requests. I had very specific requests in my build and Brent selected the material best for the application. His tubes are unidirectional and come from Edge composites in Utah then hand wrapped instead of mono or lugged
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...s/000_0368.jpg |
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