StormCloud Fire

Do you ever suffer low back pain?

Chances are Its due to an improper Bike Fit or The worst case unequal length legs.
A stem that is to short can over curl the low back and casue general low back pain of no severe consequence just get a longer stem.
If thats not your Cure OUCH this is A serious case of "ride or not to ride" If you chose to ride Then you should not have a sore back especially one that sends sharp pains down your legs and buttocks .
MY last Competitive race blew a A Lumbar spine disk. It imploded into the spinal channal. This was a Hell of a surgical process to clean it up and put me back on the bike . Then Disk 2 Blew the same way.
WHY ----was my next question. -- 26 years prior I had fractured a Femur and the Doctor reset it WRONG too late for litigation I had to live with this. NO surgeon would corrrect it. I had to determine the almount of mal alignment and what it was meaning to my spine.
I determined I had one leg 1.6 cm longer now due to the bad re set. That I determined by home methoids and had later confirmed by X -Ray. Doctors All say QUOTE " that my discrepancy is within acceptable limits " If so why then did I destroy 2 Lumbar Sacrial disks? When my cure for the problem is providing Comfort If I remove the Device I made I am in considerable pain. Simple Proof that It is Not within reasonable limits . But then Doctors seldom ride as a fit rider should.
I developed a Simple Lift under my Clete made of 1.6 cm plates built out of 14 1 Mm plates. It was 1.6 cm awhere it was needed . OVer the past 12 years I have Made design changes and this year I will werar a FULL sole Fiber Glass version after seing the POWER difference in A simple Lift to a more complex lift . Articles written in "Bicycling" mag. circa 1989 indicate a 1/2 inch or 1.2 Cm is acceptible and the body will compensate. My tests proved a power loss of 7 watts per mm. ANd There was perfect Linearity of that to the last Milimeter. When the lift was over compensated the power loss was 11 watts per mm and increased at a rate about 1.5 times 11 Per aditional mm after 3 milimeters. showing correctly that the muscles in the legs were compensating and favoured the deficient leg. but in the case of a .5 mm difference a 35 watts of power is lost by not compensating for the problem. I can ride continuous at a output of 192 wats When corrected repeatedly +/-5 watts. uncorected by.5mm drops my power by almost 18% by 1.6 Cms Its Down by 102 wats Or greater than 60% thus to climb that Nemisis hill I am torquing the Spine with a tilted hip and pelvic line and Applying more force on one leg than the other . The leg that the saddle height "is Set up for". This action is what casued my disk to rupture on the internal Face not bulge out and implode in small fragments into my spine.
Last season At age 55 ANd with 11 Crushed vertebra additioal injury, I rode 9,300 KM and averaged 32 kmh overall. I desroyed all my old personal best times by immense amounts, most still were set in my days pre surgery. ALL fell this last season. with a very ugly looking Full sole lift. Over the off season just too cold to ride outside I have developed a fiberglass version and tested it and The figures showed me just what Bicycling Mag was saying.
I rode with No lift then with My basic lift There was a LOSS of about 20 watts. Significant but comfort was recovered with the CLETE AREA only lift. I then extended the lift rear ward and It was an improvement. The full frontal and rear extentions showed dramatic improvements. Ths showed the entier foot i responsible for generating max imum powere. The partail foot lift was isolating the power appliationto a specific group of muscles thus the foot was unable to transmit all the muscle groups combined effort. Bicycling said A LIFT would reduce rider output power . I do agree but a correct design lift proved this is not the case, and power of a so handicapped rider will be compareable to NON handicapped peers.

This is an uncommon situation, But I know a fw riders are suffering or suspect a problem may exist. I have not found a comercial product or Cycling shoe maker that cater's to we few. Thus it is left to our own Handicraft to Make a suitable Lift. Would I make one custon HELL NO I have well over 100 hours of Design and mold making and fine tunning ths fiber glass version It will be the mold BLANK for the Carbon version when I am satisfied it is prerfect. I will ride it for a season.


The solid fiber glass version will get real road testing this spring late March and hope to get the bugs out as they are or will be painfull. I have found many despite my care in CASTING THE SHOE SOLE. Sole with No weigth on it is diferent to one with WEIGHT? despite the stiffness in the sole material That poses a problem, but one cannot stand in the shoe for 24 hours, and not move, while the resin sets. Thus all the pressure spots must be removed before the final Carbon version. I intend to reduce weight with AIR bladders inside the lift by another 75%. That I am looking forward to. More Power? Less weight ? YES. But I have tested and proved old lift designes were all partial lifts and did reduce power. My full length design does in fact equalize leg length and provide a very pain free ride. The power that was lost due to the discrepancy is recovered . I was able to Graphically show the Problem exists to within 1 mm of discrepancy and the MUSCLES do not naturaly compensate for such a problem. Thus leaving one leg weaker than the other. That the total loss of power is directly proportional to the discrepancy. Each person will have a loss FIGURE of their own. mine was 7.2 wattts per mm.
It looks ugly but rides like a dream. It allows me to get out and exercise my Lungs I have COPD. Cycling Provides me with pain relief from my spinal injuries. X ray checks prove I am increasing the bone density in what Vertebra I have left. and By March I will have a lower density than I did the previous November. I exercise the vital muscles of my low back to prevent further damage to my spine . So go ahead and laugh at this block for my peddle ! I like it .

I coach at amateur level, and I try to coach myself with the same level of discipline. and same intensity. Its personal I dont age I get faster, and better. If not at least I try to the maximum of my body allowance. Any fraser Valley riders want a slow ride partner to train with?

late

Hi,
this is just a shot in the dark, so please excuse me if I'm way oof base...but...would custom cranks help?
You can get them made to your exact size on each side. As an experiment, you could also try something like a 170mm on one side, and a 175mm on the other.Also, I have been told that a leather saddle like Brooks will accomodate small differences in leg length. Best of luck.

uciflylow

I put 2.5 mm washers under my Look cleats for my right foot. It makes all the difference in the world as far a power and comfort are concerned. I find that if I tilt my saddle too far back I have some back problems also. BTW I have a Brooks Team Pro and LOVE it!

dtufts

how does one measure to see if legs are off by 1 or 2 mm? Any suggestions?

uciflylow

I unclip one foot at a time and spin a smooth circle, with the other foot clipped out, the long leg will have a good smooth spin, while the shorter leg will be jerky. This may not be scientific but it worked for me! Also if you raise the saddle too much you will start hurting the longer leg.

I only concern myself with this on my road bike. On the commuter I just adjust the saddle higth to the long leg.

roadwarrior

Many times, back pain is caused by too much difference between the seat height and the handlebars. Take a yardstick and put it on the nose of the seat and see how high the seat is vs the stem...too much difference puts your torso in a "downhill" position and puts your rear end higher, thus putting stress on your lower back muscles. Even riding on the brake hoods, much less the drops.

If there are variations in leg length or if you supinate or pronate your foot, LeMond makes a shim that can go under the pedal cleat to even out the hieght, or the rotation...I have one under my right foot cleat and it made a huge difference.

StormCloud Fire

I tried 165 and 170 And nearly paraized myself in under 100 meters. thats system is just a dangerous myth! I must use a Balanced saddle becasue of the Spinal damage. ANd none of the alternates to my process produce a power gain of 274% from 105 watts with NO lift to 280 With a liftmade to contour the sho perfectly .
Good comments though. AS I am a coach I have almost free roam of the supporting cycle shop to try ANy ideas I wish Free then pay if thy work.
175 on my stubs for legs would throw me over the bar !!
1.6 cms is a Very large diference.
Peter

StormCloud Fire

Before I cetified as a Cycling Coach that trick orked to cure the pronation but assisted in creating the Blown Vertebra disks.
MY tender tushie doesnt like Brooks saddles. MY lift is 274 % power improvement and thats cheap performance.

StormCloud Fire

1-3 mm Diference in leg will not produce a problem UNLES Sits due to a Broken leg or pelvis Malady.
ONe quick way is to sit on the floot and have a friend pull onyou for a slide of 10 feet ( balance with your hands )Measure the dirence inthe center point of the ankle bone ( the Lump on the inside of each ankle. OR cut 1mm MYCARTA plats to fit between the peddle and Clete. LOWEr the saddle untill YOU feel one or both knees lock at top of the peddle stroke while BACK peddling. If one is locking thats the long leg. just add mycarta plates till tou ride smoothly with both legs back peddling. remove one plate and see if you get the lock up to return. THis works. It was my first way to find out what my problem was 16 mm . you will find a 5 to 7 % improvement in hills and intervals. Overall fatigue will decline and you may average a few km/h on any gien ride worth the effort. MYcarta is available at intustrial plastic shops.
You can useually scrounge enough to Do what you need. 1-2mm is typically natural but if its that extra your looking for GO for it.

StormCloud Fire

MY diference is 1.6 cms its destroyed vertabra disks. Totaly I am early retired since 1988 at 41 years old . as a Cycling coach What your suggesting is a suicide mission.
Eithr to high or too low wil cause the hips to dip att e wrong moment inthe applicationof power thats waht explodes DIsks ! A fact few Orthpaedic surgeons and neursurgeons realize to this day.
ONly cure is to re break the long leg and re set it as it should be but secondly Make a Sho leg longer witha BLOCK simply put. but the technicla complexities are far greater. IN al I spent over $200 on my new Sole to my cycling shoe. It provides 274 % increase in power. Thats the best tack oin device you cna buy for that small outlay. I went from baely over 100 watts peek performance to over 280 watts and gained 15 years in the process to my belt line ! I do love doughnuts. Ive spent $500 on a wheel that was 50 grams lighter. BUt now Ive yet to tst my carbon fiber lift thats tomorrow its 100 grams ligther thanthe Fiberglass version probably wont do too much more in the Power department but at the end of a century ill be fressher.

Best reeards and keep safe in the traffic. ANd elbows wide inthe pelaton !

Peter

StormCloud Fire

Road Friend I am a NCCC (cyclingcoach the only person to beat my best Prodigee was Lance Armstrong back in 1987. tour of Gastown. Van BC.
the victory was 0.001 secs barely a tire tread width ! I was te Photo finish judge at that event. BOth lance and My student went onto Ride on 7_11 Brian went to Motorola and of course lance went to US postal. put to the test in brians hay day ONa Hilly course I would not put a tire patch between them.
IVe fit hundreds of cyclists to bikes and myself. with a shattred spine I do ride high in the seat catch Big air the wrong way . MY next frame is a TREK 5500 next week it should be all mine. The sterrere tube will hve a Far higher stance than my Colnago and quil stem. That I am looking forward to. I have always ridden with the highest stem and riser I could find. That was not the casue f my Blown disks We did a lot of filming of me onthe bike nad even sat up no hands on a trackstand showed The Lumpy style my legs caused. I always ride onthe hoods and I actually prefer to ride with Aero bars!! I was 16 when I last used the drops ! Even in races.
Ive finally convinced one orhtopaedic surgeon to be less critical of complainers about legs being wrong length.

Corsaire

That power loss things sounds like a herniated disc, very liekly, go to a Quack

late

Hi,
I am intrigued by what StormCloud Fire is saying. But I am not certain I understand it. Is he saying he made custom cycling shoes and one had a slightly thicker sole? I might want to do that, there is a guy who makes custom cycling shoes. Wonder how I would go about doing this without screwing it up.

ezryder03

Peter, my honest opinion regarding your situation is mainly to stop riding if riding a bike makes your back hurt- "PREVENTION IN BETTER THAN CURE". At work, i have dealt with a lot of back pain patients. Leg length discrepancy alone will not cause a disc to rapture. In fact, 1.6 cm is within normal limits as what the doctor told you.Disc rapture happes when you stay bent on your waist frequenntly for prolong period at a time or when lifting heavy objects while in a bent position- squating and lifting with your back not the legs. I believe that you have back problems before and in most disc problems, it starts graudually but just did not realize that it is there. Symptoms ussually occurs at a later stage when pain, numbness and tingling starts to bother you in your back and legs. If you look at the reason why a disc bulges and rapture, it is because there is unequal pressure that's being applied to the disc. Intradiscal pressure is worse or greatest in a sitting position compared to other positions such as standing and lying. Why? In sitting, your spine starts to angle putting more pressure to the anterior aspect of the disc causing the disc fluid to move posteriorly. When you stay sitting for long periods of time, it starts thining the linings of the posterior part of the disc and finally rapture. If you noticed, bulging occurs posteriorly and angled laterally. It is very rare to have a ruptured disc on the antrior part of the disc- ex. pregnant women or obese individual with hyper lordosis of lumbar spine. In sitting, the spine starts to curve or bend and bending usually occurs at the L4-S1 level of your spine. That's why most raptured disc occur at this level. REGARDLESS ON WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR STEM OR CRANK LENGTH, IT WILL NOT HELP. In riding bikes, you still have to be in a sitting position for some time combined with some twisting movements while riding in flats or hills. I'm sorry to tell you this but that's the bottom line. If you already had surgery with your back, and riding a bike makes your back hurt, you have to consider stopping it or riding in short rides, make a stop for a few minutes to get some extension on your back, be walking some or doing back extension ex. in standing. I have seen a lot of patients who have been through tough times and believe me, it can cripple you when you start having nerve related problems. Bottom line, leg length discrepancy does not cause a raptured disc. Poor body mechanics when lifting, work related-jobs requiring frequent bending/twisting,prolong sitting at work are common causes of of back problems. I hope this 2 cents advice helps.

P. B. Walker

I have a 2.2 cm difference in my leg lengths. I knew this all along growing up because it was caused by a leg break when I was 7 years old. I eventually went and got a scan-o-gram done on my legs last year and found out the exact difference. And unfortunately, it's not just in my lower legs, it's also different in my thighs.

The only way I've been able to get a comfortable position on the bike is to shim my left cleat (my left leg is the shorter leg) as much as possible. I say as much as possible because the cleat screws are only so long, so I put as many shims as I could between the cleat and the shoe until the screw would not reach the sole, and then backed off one shim until I could still screw it in. I was able to put roughly 0.5cm of shim on that shoe, which is roughly half of the difference between my lower legs. Then I moved the cleat on my left shoe more toward the toe in order to make up for the difference between my upper legs (thighs).

I'd have to find the name and author of the book to be exact, but I believe it was called the Medical Guide for Cyclist, or something like that. Anyway, in that book the author states that you really just need to cut the difference in half and not try to get your legs perfectly equal in order to enjoy a comfortable ride. I've also gone and been fitted to my bike and was sure to tell the guy fitting me about the leg length difference.

Since doing this I've had no back pains. I've been able to find a comfortable saddle height and position, and had no knee problems or pains. On rare occasion, I will get a pain in my left IT band, but I believe that is caused from over riding without enough base miles.

I am not a racer and I mostly ride because I enjoy it. I rode about 5700 miles last year, so I get out to ride several times a week and try to do several century rides per year.

PS, I just looked up the name of the book. It's Andy Pruitt's Medical Guide for Cyclists. I highly recommend it to everyone since it covers a lot more than just leg length differences.

ezryder03

Like LATE, there are factors not being mentioned in this case. LEG LENGTH DISCREPANCY(LLD) ALONE DOES NOT CAUSE POWER LOSS TO ONE LEG. Other factors in this case is which side is dominant ? Right handed individuals usually have a stronger right leg. What constitutes power in your legs ? Is it length of the leg per se or the muscles that move our legs? Although, length can be a big factor only if the discrepancy is so big. But at 1.6 cm., i believe it won't make any difference. Based on StormCloud Fire's situation with him having surgery and back problems, it can be a common problem of having weakness in either leg.
Peter, just wondered how you came up with your power measurements regarding wattage comsumption. I don't think it's an accurate way of finding out power loss. Power loss can be due to weakness,fatigue, endurance, nerve problems and etc.. In the clinic, we use a biofeedback machine to measure strength of each particular muscle for a particular movement. It gives you a graph or percentage to know if strength has decrease or increase. I suggest you try the biofeedback machine. It's a good tool for measuring strength accurately.

SDS

The difference between my right leg and my left leg is 15mm, almost evenly divided between the femur and the tib-fib, measured by CT scanogram. The right hip is twisted and bent too, so the actual correction that would be needed to level the sacrum is 21-22mm.

I was miserable for years, and it got worse as I got older. What finally tipped me off was a full-page diagram in Bicycling, "common cyclist problems", and it noted that if you get saddlesores only on one side of your crotch, that leg might be short. Bingo....measuring up from the ground under the foot, up the side of the leg, to the top of the trochanter at the outside of the leg (is that the greater or lesser trochanter?) showed a difference of 3/4". I was over by .1".

My symptoms had been the saddlesores, lumbar back pain in the joints and in the muscles that ran up beside the spine on the side of the short leg. As I got older I got to the point where the pain would stop me before I finished 100-mile centuries at a 4.5 hr pace.

I stacked Look cleats on the bottom of my cycling shoes, drilling through the shoes and installing tee-nuts and 1/4" hex bolts, first one extra cleat and then two to get a difference between the shoes of 3/4". Relief at last.

As the years passed I wanted to get into the SPD pedal system and have the correction built into the sole. Luckily there is a cobbler that does a lot of this work near Richardson Bike Mart, so I knew just where to go.

But before I did that I wanted to know exactly what the difference was and what I should do about it, so I saw an orthopedic surgeon and got CT'ed. X-raying the pelvis turned up the deformity there as well.

A study of Finnish army recruits showed that recruits with a leg length inequality of at least 6mm were twice as likely to complain of back pain. There's at least one cycling coach website that says a diffference of 3 mm is significant. I think for cyclists that's right: if you put a 1/8"-3mm shim under one shoe, you will be able to tell the difference.

What's the best way to measure if you can't get CT scanogram or x-ray teleoroentgenogram done by expert? Well, my experience is that the measurement I described above is more accurate than the supine measurement between the medial malleolus (knob on inside of ankle) to most anterior point on anterior superior iliac spine (?, where your hip bone sticks out on the front of your body).

In my experience, the most accurate discriminator for qualitatively determining that you have a problem is the saddlesore distribution. If you have a problem, my recommendation is that you keep going up until the saddlesore distribution is even all the way across, or if you are lucky, they will disappear entirely.

Looking at the lumbar disks bulging out the convex side of the curve in the lumbar spine scared me pretty badly, so slowly but surely, I am raising the soles on all my right shoes, both for on the bike and off.

It's not fun living with this, but you are better off knowing you have it and fixing it than ignoring it.

ezryder03

SDS was correct to point out the right way of measuring LLD(leg length discrepancy) from ASIS to Medial malleolus. We call it "TRUE LEG DISCREPANCY MEASUREMENT". SDS, might need to check with other healthcare professionals about your 15 mm discrepancy. It could be possible that you just have a "rotated pelvis" causing the discrepancy. A lot of individuals have this problem whereby the pelvis is rotated posteriorly or anteriorly and can be corrected with simple exercise program. Check with your local physical therapist who's good in "MANUAL THERAPY SPECIALLY WITH GOOD BACKGROUND/EXPERIENCE IN JOINT MOBILZATION OF THE SPINE AND LOW BACK." Our pelvis rotate anteriorly and posteriorly as we walk,climb,run and etc. At times the pelvis locks up and does not go back to the original position. This lock up causes a rotated pelvis thereby causing one leg to get shorter.

cycletourist

My right leg (shin bone) is approximately 10mm shorter than my left. I deal with it thus;

I moved my right cleat all the way forward to lengthen my right leg slightly. I moved my left cleat all the way back to slightly shorten that leg. This reduces the discrepancy enough that I am able to ride without knee pain.

Also see Bill Boston's website. He discusses Leg Length Inequality on his bike fit page.
https://www.billbostoncycles.com/bicycle_fit.htm