sced

https://cgi.ebay.com/2008-NEW-ROAD-RA...d=p3286.c0.m14

Now we're converging on the truth - the "real Dawes" of yore ain't no more. I say get the ~$200 bike. If you get bitten by the bike bug you'll eventually get a better ride. If not, you're only out peanuts. Be healthy, have fun

iab

These occasional fake vs. real brand threads are just silly.

A brand is an asset owned by a company, nothing less, nothing more. There is nothing shady about using Dawes USA, do they need to disclaim they aren't affliated with Dawes Saudi Arabia? For the entire history of trademarks (and patents for that matter), they need to be applied for in every country, there is no such thing as a worldwide trademark.

So the great offence is using the past reputation of the "old" brand to sell the "new" brand. Fine, you call that shady, but it is done and at best, it may or may not get you the first sale. After the customer has experienced the product, any additional sales are based on the meaning of the "new" brand and has little to nothing to do with the meaning of the "old" brand. No company can survive on a one time sale basis, they need brand loyalty from their customers. So if Dawes USA were as shady as you claim, they would have folded years ago. A business stays afloat based on their curent brand so any bump they get from an old meaning is basically immaterial.

I do have a request, can you tell me exactly when does a brand becomes "fake"? A brand is an asset and a brand manager manages (go figure) that asset. In doing so, they determine the meaning they want the customer to take away and can change that meaning if they have the resources, it happens everyday (for example, Walmart is shifting from always low prices to live better).

I have a bike example, is a Cinelli still a Cinelli? I have read on these forums it is not. When did the change happen? Giotto Cinelli started the company in 1946. In 1948 his brother Cino took over the company while Giotto concentrated on an electrical company. Was it no longer Cinelli when Cino took over? Also in 1948, they moved from Firenze to Milano. Was it still Cinelli when they moved operations? Cino didn't want to use that new fangled aluminum for handlebars until 1960. Was it no longer Cinelli when he switched materials? Cino retired in 1978 and sold the company to Antonio Columbo. Was it no longer a Cinelli even though nothing changed in production and their head frame builder stayed on until the early 80s? The logo changed in about 1980, was that when it happened or when the quality of the frames diminished after the head builder retired? Was it when they changed to aluminum frames in the 90s or when they started with carbon in the 00s? In the last couple of years they have moved some production to Asia, was it then?

Saying a brand is "real" of "fake" shows a very limited view of how business works and labels like those are only based on perception and not reality.

halfspeed

If this were true, then nobody would spend money to buy old brand names. There's quite a bit of money to be made masquerading as somebody else.

iab

You didn't read my post, the "old" brand can bring in first timers, the "new" brand gets them hooked (or not). Again, brands (old or new) are assets and can be listed on P&L statements.

gabelny

nicely put iab. very nicely put.

halfspeed

There are LOTS of first timers who might remember an old brand name. Besides, there's a huge supply of old brand names to cycle through. BD has many of them.

iab

Again, you cannot build a business based on one-time customers. It will not work. Also, there is no way brand recognition guarantees a sale and I have no proof, but I suspect customers being "fooled" by the new brand is a very small percentage. I'd say 98% of the people who buy from BD are driven by price. I'd say 98% of the people on this board are driven by price for any bike purchase.

dcbikeguy

I think anyone with common sense would look at this add and be VERY wary. "Hey, look at all the different fonts I can use - these are respectable bikes!"

I guess there are folks who buy them. Like South Carolina Ed for example. But hey, people buy cheap sh*t all the time. Dollar stores have their place I suppose.

Still, when I think of Mike and BD - I think of this...(especially since we now know that the shill phenomenon is a fact).

halfspeed

If 98% of BD's customers are buying solely on price and not brand name, then Mike is a fool for wasting his money on buying old brand names. In fact, he knows better.

He also knows it allows him to create the illusion that he's a distributor for the products of a number of different European companies.

acorn_user

iab gave a nice description of how complex branding can be these days.
Good posting.

sced

Why? What's wrong with that bike at that price? Please be specific. Maybe you can start by comparing it to your bike.

sced

How is this different from famous European makes promulgating that their products are in some significant way European? For example, aren't companies like Colnago, Pinarello, and Dawes just brands owned by corporations that outsource most or all of their products to Asian sources that know a lot more than they do about advanced engineering design and manufacturing technologies?

markwebb

I don't think the current Dawes bikes have anything to do with any enterprise in Birmingham. BD just purchased or acquired the rights to use several marques that were old standards - Motobecane, Dawes, Windsor, etc. They are all made in Asia for the one US comany BD. Those folks you cited in UK have nothing to do with the Dawes bikes now marketed by BD. The current dawes Galaxy is a 100% BD bike made in China with no ties to UK.

markwebb

But that being said, there are a LOT ton a bunch of very satisfied BD customers. The bikes are very comparable to others in their price range, and sometimes you can get a complete BD bike with good wheels for less than just what the group+wheels would cost purchased separately.

They are a good product, but most folks just object to their marketing. Me - I'm jealous I did not think of it. I'd probably do it differently as far as business plan, as some of their ads are borderline deceitful, and I would operate more up-front with toll-free customer service and ordering and such, but you can't argue with their business success and, ultimately, it's a good product.

markwebb

Yup - several years ago I was 30 minutes awat from ordering one, but I got suspicious because all the Web sites looked about the same, they had no toll-free line, and they all had slightly different addresses/locations. That's when I figured out they were not the Motos, Dawes, Windsors of the 70's that I used to race against.

The most misleading one right now might be the Italian Bottchelia (sp) from BD. They're very overt in proclaiming to be a distributor of these "Italian" bikes - like they are really nmade by little-old-Italian racer dudes in italy and shipped to BD for distribution in USA. Those trouble me, but hey it's business and it's a great business marketing idea that has proven successful these many years. I'm still jealous and would love to take the model and improve on it.

sced

Where are Bottecchias made these days? Do you think BD is using the Bottecchia name illegally?

DrPete 

"Bottecchia USA," i.e. BikesDirect.com, or Bottecchia Italy?

wheelspeed

Funny timing... I just happened to be looking for a 52cm frame for my girlfriend, and the Dawes bikes popped up. I never heard of 'em and I don't know anything about road bikes, so I was curious about feedback on how these are (I mean these ebay ones like this https://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-ALUMINUM-CAR...d=p3286.c0.m14

Too bad this thread turned into a branding debate.

halfspeed

I've explained this to you before and I have little hope you'll do any better comprehending it now than in the past, but I'll explain it again anyway in case someone else is having trouble with it.

Every bicycle sold as a Colnago has Ernesto's name on the down tube. His company has spent decades building his reputation. If a bunch of substandard Colnagos reach the market, it damages his reputation permanently. If a bunch of substandard "Bottecchias" reach the market, BD can just shut down the bottecchiausa.com web site, rebalance the decal distribution and ignore the BBB complaints.

BD sells generally competent bikes with poor customer service, suspect Q&A and deceptive advertising aimed at n00bs who are the least likely road bike consumers to do well with mail order bikes. If you're fine with all that, then buy a BD bike and enjoy every minute of it.

stapfam

Like most on the forum- I started with a basic cheap bike. Couldn't afford anything else but within a couple of years I bought a sensible quality bike with a good name- A GT bike. Admittedly a low end GT but it was a GT from that famous Marque. I could have bought one of many manufacturers but it just happened that I bought from a local Shop that had a good reputaion for selling good bikes.

So there it is- a good bike from a good manufacturer with a good reputation. Unfortunately-GT went bust. But I can still buy a GT at half the price I paid 15 years ago. I won't but some people will.

alanbikehouston

Confusing a REAL Dawes bike from Dawes of the UK with a Chino-cr@p bike with a "Dawes" decal glued on by BD is like confusing a Mercedes with a Yugo...only a moron could be fooled by BD's attempt to "rip-off" the great name of Dawes.

When BD talks about the "glorious history" of the Dawes names, BD is talking about the OTHER Dawes...the one in England...deceptive? Well, deception is what BD sells.

gabelny

lol nice repeat post. and again, false

sced

Check out the Dawes UK site and tell us again that they manufacture great bikes.

mawtangent

I got the Dawes Lighting Sport from an ebay seller in June. It was reduced to $149 (+ 39 shipping) because of cosmetic issues (it had a few areas of scratch-marks on the frame, and a 6 mm-long gash in the handlebar stem, these things did not effect the functon of the bike, I filed the sharp edge of the gash down to prevent getting a cut). I grew up on Westen Auto and Huffy-type bikes. In the last couple of years I've owned one other (I assume) BD bike that I got new from an ebay seller, a Windsor Stratford flatbar roadbike for around $350 shipped. I also have had an 1986 Schwinn Traveler roadbike for about 18 months (also purchase through ebay). I live in the boondocks as far as cycling shops/activity is concerned. I've never ridden a $1000, or even a $500 bike. So that is the place/experience that I am coming from.

I got the Lighting Sport in the 59 cm size. It weighs via bathroom scale around 28 lbs. Both wheels needed to be trued (which I hesitantly did myself) and both derailleurs needed quite a bit of tweaking (which I expected), even to the point of having to loosen and physically move the front derailler to a new position. I got it to shift into all gears, but still get a little harmless-sounding noise when it is in the second smallest cog in the rear. The gearing (2 x 7, 14 speed total) may not be the easiest for climbing hills (sometimes I wouldn't mind having one more easier gear). I have put around 300 miles on the Dawes and am overall satisfied with the bike. Others have called it "retro" and it compares similarly to my '86 Schwinn Traveler (both have similar weight, a chromoly frame, and stem-type shifters). It does have quick-release wheels (and the brake "switches" that allow easy removal of the wheel from between the brake pads) which is a big advantage over most x-mart bikes.

iab

Not if he got the brands for a song.