mustang1

There's a thread going on where poster wants to compare Seven with Cervelo. Now I'm not speaking out of experience, I dont have the money for a custom frame, nor will I be getting a Cervelo any time soon. But it's something I've bene thinking about for a while...

Why do many people think custom frames are better... because they fit better? Because they're unique to your body and riding style? I dont think so. I mean, how much development can one frame builder do with one unique bike, if any at all. Specialized and Cervelo and Trek etc all do a bunch of development work with their frames and forks (I'm not entirely convinced about Cervelo's wind-tunnel tests, but that's besides the point...) they all invest in tube design, stiffness, handling, comfort. I doubt a custom builder can do any of this as well as the big boys.

Custom frame builders can't do any development work (and dont tell me they "have a feel for these things after many years of building frames"). The only reason you like custom frames is it makes you stand out from the crowd. I've seen many posts where a person has both a custom frame and an off/shelf frame and they're much prefer the off/shelf frame.

And tell me one more thing... what's the difference between a custom frame and an off/shelf frame that's been pro-fitted to you? I would have more confidence in the latter. So when I have the money, it won't be going to a custom frame builder.

dekindy

Troll. I am getting so that I can spot them a mile away.

mustang1

No troll

sedpedal

ever think that maybe a person wants certain ride qualities that are no longer seen in the market. i went custom because i wanted a frame with steeper geo than the 73degree angles that has come to be the norm. i wanted a more nimble frame and i'm willing to lose a little ride comfort for that. if you ride an off the shelf frame you are the mercy of the market who designs products for what the majority want.

MDcatV

I suppose the experience of a custom frame builder is irrelevant compared to the "development work" done by frame manufacturers.

celerystalksme

when i was shopping for a custom ti last winter, i talked to a LOT of custom frame makers...habanero, holland, linskey, quiring, a few others i can no longer remeber...my local dealer (seven, serotta, parlee, guru, waterford)...my other local dealer (IF, litespeed)...

when speaking with them, i was very concerned about fit...and funnily enough, i was told that unless i had very odd proportions or odd needs, the geometry of my custom bike will probably be identical to a stock bike. both my local dealers said that probably 99% of the custom frames they sell end up being the same as a stock geometry bike...but people like the IDEA of customization, that it was made specially for THEM...sort of a exclusivity thing, especially with the "name" fabricators.

SushiJoe

I could believe that. Besides always wanting a Seven, I also wanted a Ti bike, that was orange and blue with an extended head tube. I'm 6'3 and want to keep my back in good shape. Bad backs run in the family. A Custom fit is great, but even better is getting to ride the exact bike you day-dream about.

velotel

A custom frame is not just about the angles and tube lengths but also the tubes themselves. For example take two guys who are both 6 feet tall, only one weighs in at 130 lbs and loves to climb and the other comes in at 200 lbs and loves to sprint. I'm also assuming leg and arm lengths are the same just to keep it simple. Stock frames off the shelf normally all share the same tubing for the level of performance the bike was built for. But in this case the tubing is either going to be way too heavy and stiff for the climber or way too flimsy for the sprinter. A custom frame builder selects tubing according to the rider's needs. And if perhaps the two riders, which is highly likely in the real world, in fact had different length arms and legs though the overall height was the same, one of the off the shelf bikes is going to have to be modified by changing stems, seat posts, saddles, maybe even cranks to achieve the correct fit for at least one of the two. Or maybe one of the two has huge feet while the other guy has small feet. The big feet can have an overlap problem with the front wheel on a factory build; the custom build takes foot size into consideration. This is only to mention a few advantages of custom builds.
But if you're only looking at geometry, you're right; almost all the bikes are the same. I mean people have been building bike frames for over a hundred years and somewhere along that time frame one would assume the angles and dimensions had for the most part been worked out. In other words there are no secrets in geometry. Nevertheless there's more to a frame than angles and tube lengths.

SushiJoe

Exactly right. Tube thickness and the whole-nine play into how you want your bike to ride. That's why they have so many questions concerning fit. It's so the exact tubes are selected for your needs. If you want it to be ultra lightweight, and if it's ti, it might come out noodly. Think Litespeed Ghisallo. Really it just boild down to another option for spending your money on a bike.

Mr. Beanz

I always wonder...How does one know that a custom frame will feel better if it hasn't been built yet?

Can another rider of different dimensions ride it and say,"oh yes, that will feel better for you!"?:

Does the custom builder build the frame then ask,"what length stem would you like?".

Does the frame builder say," May I suggest a longer toptube cause I would prefer one if I were you"?

mustang1

I did. But I figured (admitedly, thru limited experience) these things were taken into account. Eg. Spec Roubaix is gentle, Tarmac is stiff, Cervelo R3 SL is mix of roubaix and tarmac (or whatever), CAAD9 is stiff yet comfortable. I just didn't understand the custom frame builder thing except for prestige (which I do understand and respect) because once the builder gets you a frame, you had better like what he builds coz there's no way you can alter that except for altering alterable things (like stem, cranks, stuff like that) which you can do on an off/shelf bike anyway.

I also read many times people who have both off/shelf and custom frames, and now they no longer ride their off/shelf bikes as much. It made me believe the off/shelf bikes were more suited to them, whereas that's the primary purpose of a custom frame.

Erik B

I'll bite.
Aesthetics.
Standover clearance, available saddle to bar drop, and non-redicolously long stem.

I'm all torso and I wasn't willing to only choose 2 so I went custom. There are compact frames out there that are short enough(standover) and long enough(TT) but they all have head tubes that are way to tall for my taste.

Going custom wasn't any more expensive than off the shelf at my pricepoint and material choice and the custom bike fits better.

TandemGeek

There's the first problem; lack of opportunity & the perspective that it brings. Custom bikes are, after all, not typically a first time buyer item except for those who truly can't fit on a stock-size frame.


Better or better-suited to their preferences and tastes? Is a micro brew 'better' than bottled domestic beer?


True, but a custom builder has infinite flexibility when it comes to building materials, techniques, and the like which all constrain production builders who must use batch or mass assembly processes to achieve their economies of scale and the price point that their marketing research says a given bike must meet to be more attractive to consumers than the other alternatives.


I would agree that to a certain extent this is often times a reason, but certainly not the ONLY reason as not all custom frames have flamboyant paint jobs or even recognizable names. In fact, if a stock Rodriguez bike showed up in Atlanta, somoene who had never heard of the Seattle R&E Cycles house-brand would think it was custom.... as would a stock Bilenky outside of the Philadephia area.

Thankfully, you're free to make that choice... just as so-called retro-grouches often choose to stick with their sometimes decades old OTS bikes. Of course, it is interesting to see how certain purchasing decisions, values, beliefs and even personal politics change as one accumulates certain amounts of personal wealth, tempered or perhaps even skewed by how they accumulate that wealth.

celerystalksme

as far as tubing goes...

that's another interesting discussion i had the folks at habenero, linskey, holland, and quiring...and this was something that went against all BF thinking...

again...i was interested in a titanium frame because of all the glowing things i heard on BF. i told all the builders that i basically loved my specialized roubaix expert...it fit like a glove but if the builder felt like tweeking the fit a little, no biggie. but despite the fact that i loved my roubaix, i wanted a titanium ride!

here's what i was told from all the builders/shops...they were very frank and said that the titanium bike probably wouldn't feel a whole lot different from the roubaix. i was, "WTF? that's not what i heard on the interwebs and on all the bike forums!!!!!" well...the folks at habanero, holland, linskey, etc all said the same: if the titanium frame geometry is the same as the carbon frame geometry...and all the components are kept the same (seat post, seat, stem, bar, wheels, tires/tubes, etc)....they're gonna feel pretty darn identical. they said sure...one might be lighter than the other for hillclimbs...one might be stiffer than the other if i'm a big burly sprinter...but they all said for the most part, the custom titanium will feel pretty damn indistinguisshable from my carbon roubaix if geometry and components are kept the same.

i believe it was the guy i was corresponding with at habanero that sent me a interesting article from a cycling magazine many years back. it was all about whether riders could REALLY tell the difference between different tubing. the had Mondonico build some 5 different bikes with different tubing...same geometry...same components...something like 8 different riders (pros, semi-pros, bike magazine writers). no one could tell what was what or which was different from what...

food for thought...

sedpedal

true, but i guess i wanted something that was phased out of the market in the late 80's haha. a stiff, steep angled crit bike, and with traditional geo.

i guess it just comes down to what you want for your $2000+. i kind of liked the fact that same person who spoke to me on the phone is also the same person who is selecting my tubing and welding the frame. also nothing to the quality of the big names but i think someone who builds 50-100 frames a year and has a love of the sport is going to put a little more into each one than a malaysian factory work who lays up 5-10 carbon frames a day and can't afford what he makes.

s4one

What makes you think a single person cannot develop a quality frame? Many custom builders worked at high end companies before but break off into their own business due to financial reasons. Therefore, many of the customizers (<--- i know its not a word) have the same experience. I'm not saying all, but just food for thought. This does not apply solely for bicycles but many auto racer, motorcycle racers, etc. Mechanics/people break off to develop their own ideas.

sstorkel

Then again, many haven't. I own a TIG welder and built my own MTB frame last year. If I wanted to, I could build another one. Or a road frame. Does that qualify me as an expert on fit? I know quite a few custom frame builders who really don't have a clue about anything other than welding...

Trogon

If off the shelf is good enough for you, then great, that's a spot in some custom builder's queue that can go to a more discerning (or pickier, if you prefer) consumer.

From my perspective, every rack frame represents some sort of compromise - color, materials, decals, tubing shape, geometry, fit, components. When you get into the stratospheric price ranges, why compromise when you don't have to? A custom builder can build it precisely the way you want it. Now, that may not be important to you, but it is to me.

It's like these spot built McMansions common in my neighborhood. If you're going to spend a million on a house, don't you want to pick the countertops, appliances, colors and landscaping? Well, lots of people don't. Same thing as spending a pile on a rack bike - if it's good enough, ride on and be happy.

rmfnla

Exactly.

A bike company has to make a certain amount of return off the investment of designing and producing a specific model, and that means making sure it appeals to as many people as possible.

My bikes need only appeal to me so I get exactly what I want.

If this doesn't matter to (or is lost on) someone then for that person there is no difference.

classic1

You know not what you speak of. You make generalisations about snob value. In Australia about 20 year ago, custom was almost the only option you had if you raced. Race frames were either cheap rubbish or really expensive Euro brands.

Its not just 'fit'. It's not just about 'stiffness', or any of the other stuff you mention, most of which is hype and marketing anyway. I can probably set a bike up to find my position on any frame from 53cm to 59cm if I used ridiculously long or short stems, but the bike would look stupid and will ride like a dog.

Custom is as much about balance, proportion and weight distibution as fit. As Trogon said, rack frames often present a compromise.

MikeLD

I bought a custom (relatively light steel). It was not overly expensive ($1,450 for the frame) ... it fits my long torso, I built it up to suit me, and I ended up with a very "personal" bike that is comfortable and I enjoy riding. I also have a $400 Surly Pacer frame that I built up as a "rain" bike. There's nothing wrong with it ... it fits pretty well, and I enjoy it too. I suspect I'll keep the custom bike for years to come because it's "personal" ... every other bike I have will probably get sold and replaced every few years.

I guess it's like alot of things. An off the rack suit is fine ... what 99% of people need and buy, but a tailored suit probably fits better and lasts longer. If you're buying a new house ... a spec house in a tract is fine, comfortable, and there's nothing wrong with it ... but to have a house built just the way you want it is very special. I could go on, but you get the picture.

mustang1

IN BOLD IS ME

I dont have the money for a custom frame.

There's the first problem; lack of opportunity & the perspective that it brings. Custom bikes are, after all, not typically a first time buyer item except for those who truly can't fit on a stock-size frame.

Ok, let me rephrase that, I wasn't entirely accurate. I can afford a custom frame but from the reading I've done, I cant see the benefits of one over an OTS frame, unless one is of different proprotions (eg long torso short legs or whatever). I'm still not in the market for one, and neither am I in the market for a high-end bike. I do understand why one would buy a high end OTS bike, but I still dont understand the custom framed bike apart from wanting to be different (and I have absolutely no objection to that). Wrt a performance high-end bike, I'm not sure what benefits there are compared to custom?



Why do many people think custom frames are better.

Better or better-suited to their preferences and tastes? Is a micro brew 'better' than bottled domestic beer?

Better suited to their tastes.


I doubt a custom builder can do any of this as well as the big boys.

True, but a custom builder has infinite flexibility when it comes to building materials, techniques, and the like which all constrain production builders who must use batch or mass assembly processes to achieve their economies of scale and the price point that their marketing research says a given bike must meet to be more attractive to consumers than the other alternatives.

What is the point of "a custom builder has infinite flexibility when it comes to building materials, tec...". For example, if I want the comfort of a Roubaix and the stiffness of a Cervelo S3, can the custom frame builder build this for me but the big boys cant? Sorry I'm not attempting to sound bad, I'm just askin'.


The only reason you like custom frames is it makes you stand out from the crowd.
I would agree that to a certain extent this is often times a reason, but certainly not the ONLY reason as not all custom frames have flamboyant paint jobs or even recognizable names. In fact, if a stock Rodriguez bike showed up in Atlanta, somoene who had never heard of the Seattle R&E Cycles house-brand would think it was custom.... as would a stock Bilenky outside of the Philadephia area.

You're right, but I wasn't only refering to custom paint jobs; just having a custom brand name on the down tube is enough for many.


So when I have the money, it won't be going to a custom frame builder.

Thankfully, you're free to make that choice... just as so-called retro-grouches often choose to stick with their sometimes decades old OTS bikes. Of course, it is interesting to see how certain purchasing decisions, values, beliefs and even personal politics change as one accumulates certain amounts of personal wealth, tempered or perhaps even skewed by how they accumulate that wealth.

True.

mustang1

Yup, agreed, absolutely true.

mustang1

I dont think I said that, and I hope I didn't imply it either. What I wanted to research was what is it about a custom frame that sets it apart, and in my mind the only thing I can really think of is a brand name that stands out from the crowd. And that's perfectly acceptable to me.

Put it this way, suppose I wanted a Cervelo S3, a high performance bike, stiff, and with some choice of high end components + wheels. If I went custom, what would the customizer give me that the Cervelo will not?

mustang1

I agree (for stratospheric price ranges).