Bike Forums

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Road Cycling (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/)
-   -   New wheels by Ridgeback Wheels (aka BF'er urbanknight)! (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/488403-new-wheels-ridgeback-wheels-aka-bfer-urbanknight.html)

cuda2k 11-21-08 01:37 PM

New wheels by Ridgeback Wheels (aka BF'er urbanknight)!
 
As luck would have it I was home this morning when the UPS guy arrived with two packages from me. One, a jersey I picked up on chainlove.com for a ridiculously low price, the other the much longer awaited new wheelset for the Serotta.

BikeForums member urbanknight announced some time ago that he was looking for a few people to exchange waving the labor charge of a wheel build for honest reviews of his work. I jumped on the opportunity, and then proceeded to drag my feet about what wheels I wanted to build (sorry about that...) All through my indecisiveness, urbanknight was great to work with and responded quickly to all my questions.

At last, it was the decision to rebuild my 83 Gazelle with modern campagnolo parts that finally got the plan finalized. The wheels I had been running on my Serotta (Mavic Open Pros laced to Campagnolo Daytona (aka Centaur) hubs. I was very happy with those wheels and knew I wanted something similar, but different, and I already had a set of NOS Daytona hubs in the spare parts pile. After some research, discussion with urbanknight, and likely one too many threads here on Bikeforums, I decided on Ambrosio Excellight SSC rims, a standard 32h, 3x pattern front and rear. DT Revolution spokes make up the front wheel and non-driveside rear. I went with lightly heavier DT Competition spokes on the rear drive side to help even out tension.

Initial Reactions:

1) Supurb packing. It cost a little more to ship than the barebones minimum to get the job done, but was well worth it. Lots of extra cardboard to secure the wheels in place, shrink wrapped rims to protect the finish should anything rub against them.

2) Spoke tension charts / graphs included for both wheels. More information about the build of the wheels and the tension in the spokes than I should ever need. It was an unexpected but much welcomed addition. I have a spoke tension meter here so I can spot check spokes after a few rides to see if there has been any changes.

3) Sharp looking wheels. Seeing the Ambrosio Excellight in person finally I have to say they are a sharp looking rim, certainly an option for anyone looking for an Open Pro alternative. They're going to look nice paired up with the Conti 4000S tires I plan to order later today for the wheels.

4) Near perfect horizontal and vertical true. A lot closer than I've had wheels come out of the package new from Campagnolo, and closer than I've had wheels come back from a truing at the shop even. And certainly closer than the wheels I tend to build myself have been. :lol:

Now, enough talk, how about some photos? :D

http://thecuda.com/Serotta/Ridgeback...n_IMG_1282.jpg

http://thecuda.com/Serotta/Ridgeback...n_IMG_1283.jpg

http://thecuda.com/Serotta/Ridgeback...n_IMG_1286.jpg

http://thecuda.com/Serotta/Ridgeback...n_IMG_1288.jpg

http://thecuda.com/Serotta/Ridgeback...n_IMG_1290.jpg

http://thecuda.com/Serotta/Ridgeback...n_IMG_1291.jpg

More photos and a full in-depth review of the wheels once I get tires on them and the whole package out on the road.

urbanknight 11-21-08 05:12 PM

Thanks! Those wheels sure have more character now that I see them on a bike. Hopefully you'll be able to ride them soon and give us a review on how they work as well.

Also, thanks to Waterrockets for pointing me to the spoke tension plotting pdf. I swear I looked all over the Park site and couldn't find it. Until then, I was just listing the values in word documents.

CrimsonKarter21 11-21-08 06:13 PM

Wow, very nice indeed! I'd love to hear a review on those wheels, and more specifically those rims.

umd 11-21-08 06:17 PM

It's gonna be hard to ride that bike without tires :p

urbanknight 11-21-08 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by umd (Post 7895987)
It's gonna be hard to ride that bike without tires :p

I believe he said he's ordering them from PBK, so ordering the tires will be even harder! :D

cuda2k 11-21-08 08:44 PM

Ordered a set of Conti 4000S tires this afternoon.

http://www.sdeals.com/konakart/images/Conti_GP4000S.jpg

Doubt they shipped before the end of the work day in the UK, so they'll likely get in the mail by Monday or so. With PBK's shipping, probably have them by Monday after the thanksgiving weekend. I have a set of nearly worn out Rubino Pros around I could throw on for the time being if I really want to get the new wheels out for a spin.

urbanknight 11-21-08 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuda2k (Post 7896687)
I have a set of nearly worn out Rubino Pros around I could throw on for the time being if I really want to get the new wheels out for a spin.

If it's between that and riding them on the bare rims, I'd go with the worn out tires :D

Mr. Beanz 11-21-08 09:58 PM

We'd have to see a clear pic of where the spokes enter the rear hub driveside flange to tell if it's a good build.:D

urbanknight 11-21-08 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz (Post 7897038)
We'd have to see a clear pic of where the spokes enter the rear hub driveside flange to tell if it's a good build.:D

I was actually very disappointed to find that the Daytona hubs have no medallions for me to line up with the stem hole. I should have drawn them in with a fine point sharpie.

Mr. Beanz 11-21-08 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanknight (Post 7897072)
I was actually very disappointed to find that the Daytona hubs have no medallions for me to line up with the stem hole. I should have drawn them in with a fine point sharpie.


Snot what I was looking For!:p

cuda2k 11-21-08 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanknight (Post 7897072)
I was actually very disappointed to find that the Daytona hubs have no medallions for me to line up with the stem hole. I should have drawn them in with a fine point sharpie.

Yeah, wish Campagnolo had put some sort of engraving or something on the hubs. But considering they aren't making any silver (let alone polished) hubs any more I can't complain much. And given the cost difference between these and a set of White Industries H1's (about the only polished silver hub left in production) I can't complain much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz (Post 7897428)
Snot what I was looking For!:p

gimmie a minute and I'll upload one for ya. ;)

cuda2k 11-21-08 11:19 PM

Per Mr. Beanz request. If you wanted fron the cassette side, sorry, not going to pull it for another photo. :p

http://thecuda.com/Serotta/Ridgeback...n_IMG_1293.jpg

Damn, all these macro shots are making this bike look dirty as heck. Guess it's time for the winter detail cleaning on some of the bikes (those which aren't going to get run through the winter anyways)

late 11-21-08 11:23 PM

Nice wheels.

I'm a bit of a fan of Ambrosio. If those are anything like mine, you'll like them.

Mr. Beanz 11-21-08 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuda2k (Post 7897457)
Per Mr. Beanz request. If you wanted fron the cassette side, sorry, not going to pull it for another photo. :p

http://thecuda.com/Serotta/Ridgeback...n_IMG_1293.jpg

That was the pic I was looking for! Thanks! That's the one that helps form opinions on a good wheelbuilder!:D

urbanknight 11-21-08 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz (Post 7897428)
Snot what I was looking For!:p

Yeah, but I read it three times and wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to, except maybe my survey on broken spokes, which was inspired by a debate in the mechanics forum as to which spokes are most likely to break and why. Of course, spokes on wheels built by me are not likely to break :)

But anyway, I build rear wheels with the trailing spokes on the outside so that they will kick the chain back out in the off chance it gets thrown off the big cog. I build the front wheels the same way just to match the rears.

Come to think of it, Jon, after looking at the close-up pictures I realize that you put the front wheel on backwards. I built them so the labels would be read from the drive side and those funny screws on the hub are both on the non-drive side.

rmfnla 11-21-08 11:50 PM

Nice work, u-k!

Mr. Beanz 11-21-08 11:56 PM

I guess everyone has there own thing but I followed Sheldon's theory. I had a highend shop build a wheel for me. He laced it in the same direction you chose. That was my problems child. I relaced it and no further problems since. Just sayin'!



Copied from Sheldon's site:


Which Side of the Flange?
Derailer rear wheels should be laced with the trailing spokes running up along the inside of the flange. There are three reasons for this:

1)The spokes are bent around each other at the outermost crossing. Under drive torque, especially in low gear, the trailing spokes straighten out and the leading spokes bend even more. If the wheel is laced with the trailing spokes on the outside of the flange, the crossing gets pulled outward toward the derailer cage, and in some cases will actually hit against the derailer only under load.

2)If the chain should overshoot the inner sprocket due to the derailer being mis-adjusted or bent, it is likely to get more seriously jammed between the spokes and the freewheel if the spokes slant so as to wedge the chain inward under load.*

3)If the chain should overshoot the inner sprocket, it may damage and weaken the spokes it rubs against. Since the trailing spokes are more highly stressed than the leading spokes, it is better to protect them from this type of damage by keeping them inboard.

Scroll 4/5ths down the page
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

urbanknight 11-22-08 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz (Post 7897607)
2)If the chain should overshoot the inner sprocket due to the derailer being mis-adjusted or bent, it is likely to get more seriously jammed between the spokes and the freewheel if the spokes slant so as to wedge the chain inward under load.*

This is the one I never understood on Sheldon's site. It seems to me that having the leading spokes on the outside (the Sheldon way) would suck the chain down deeper into the freewheel as the wheels rotates, while having the trailing spokes on the outside (My current way) would push the chain up and out as the wheel rotates.

The 1st and 3rd reasons make sense, but of course it's all tiny differences. I originally built rear wheels Sheldon's way because the guy who taught me told me it made a stiffer wheel. That was proven false, and I did get a chain nicely stuck in the spokes of one of my wheels, leading me to my current conclusion.

To this day, it seems to be a 50/50 split between the top wheel builders as to which way is best. Of course, is they're built and tensioned properly, either lacing should work fine. I suppose I should start asking clients which way THEY want it since I'm confident with either way.

Edit: Oh, and I'm sure you know this by now, but high end shop does not necessarily mean there is a high end wheel builder. I've seen bike shop jobs, and most of them are concerned with time and not quality.

Mr. Beanz 11-22-08 12:32 AM

Number 3 alone, trailing spokes have more stress and hitting against the traveling chain will do more damage than the leading spokes which are under less of a load, makes sense to me. I'd go for protecting the stressed trailing spokes. Drop the chain once on the trailing spokes and that could be 'all she wrote'. With the less stressed leading spokes hitting the chain, wheel's got more of a chance and longer life!

True, ask the customer! I know if it were me, I'd run if the builder mentioned placing the trailing spokes on the inside. Some will go with your rec and some will be puzzled while scratching their heads!!:roflmao2:....

cuda2k 11-22-08 12:33 AM

Thanks for pointing out that front wheel flip-er-oo. I've flipped it around now (and further noticed how dirty the bike is...) I've also discovered that my 1 year old Record headset has some major index feelin going on at the centered wheel position. *grumble* Guess I'm going to have to do some work on that and see if I can reduce that as I really don't want to drop the coin replacing such a new headset. I thought I'd run it a bit loose for a while (much to my dismay) and appears the damage had been done before I got to fix it. Time to call up my frame painter with all the headset tools and see if we can rotate the cups or something.

with all ya'lls talk of rear wheel spoke lacing you're going to make me go check the two sets I've built and see how I did it. Tomorrow... it's already far too late here as it is.

urbanknight 11-22-08 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz (Post 7897714)
Number 3 alone, trailing spokes have more stress and hitting against the traveling chain will do more damage than the leading spokes which are under less of a load, makes sense to me. I'd go for protecting the stressed trailing spokes. Drop the chain once on the trailing spokes and that could be 'all she wrote'. With the less stressed leading spokes hitting the chain, wheel's got more of a chance and longer life!

True, ask the customer! I know if it were me, I'd run if the builder mentioned placing the trailing spokes on the inside. Some will go with your rec and some will be puzzled while scratching their heads!!:roflmao2:....

??? You must have meant outside, since that was your stated preference before, right?

As for number 3, a wheel isn't really safe if any spokes are damaged by a chain, so I never gave it too much concern. And yes, I will make a recommendation for the 9 out of 10 customers who don't really know what they want.

By the way, nobody has ever been able to confirm or debunk my rationalization that the trailing spokes being on the outside will help kick a chain out because it "moves outward" as the wheel rotates. If an engineering minded people want to chime in on that, I'd love to hear more opinions.

Sorry your thread got hijacked, cuda. Any way you laced them should be fine, although I will say it's annoying to me (personally) when someone builds it one way on one side, and the opposite way on the other... unless it's a flip-flop single speed hub.

Mr. Beanz 11-22-08 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanknight (Post 7897745)
??? You must have meant outside, since that was your stated preference before, right?

Yup! I'm getting dizzy after all this spoke talk!:D

Mr. Beanz 11-22-08 02:20 AM

I'm not so sure is thread was jacked. He mentioned the quality and fine detail of his wheels. I just did a lil debatin' from the other side. Like slightly heavier spokes on the rear drive to even the tension of the rear wheel. I'd argue that if the trailing spokes were on the inside of the flange for support, the tension would be more even without the nifty switch-o-the-spokes gauge tricks.:D

Oh well, what do I know!:p

Just for the record, my bikes:
Tandem handbuilt wheel local shop (Builder A)-.........inside
Stock Trek Bontrager RaceX Lite-...........................Inside
Stock Bianchi box type Ambrosio-...........................inside
Mavic OP- handbuilt local shop(Builder A)-................inside
Handbuilt Deep V's local shop (Builder B)-.................inside
Deep V handbuilt local shop(Builder C)-....................inside
Stock Specialized Hybrid- .....................................inside
Stock Trek Bontrager MTB Select-...........................inside
Stock Lemond Bontrager Select roadie-....................inside
Stock Mavic CXP 30 105 -......................................inside
Stock Mavic CXP30 Ultegra -..................................inside

Soil_Sampler 11-22-08 02:33 AM

nice.

Alpina spokes and VeloTech tires, and you would have had the Italian Quadruple!:thumb:

ripperj 11-22-08 04:23 AM

Please make it simple, I'm dizzy too. The spokes on the inside of the drive side below are ??Trailing?? (i'm asking)

http://thecuda.com/Serotta/Ridgeback...n_IMG_1293.jpg

urbanknight 11-22-08 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz (Post 7897922)
I'm not so sure is thread was jacked. He mentioned the quality and fine detail of his wheels. I just did a lil debatin' from the other side. Like slightly heavier spokes on the rear drive to even the tension of the rear wheel. I'd argue that if the trailing spokes were on the inside of the flange for support, the tension would be more even without the nifty switch-o-the-spokes gauge tricks.:D

Actually, it won't affect the tension in any way. One way just puts pressure on the spokes from the inside, the other from the outside, but the tension will be identical either way. The use of thinner spokes on the NDS is an attempt to require more tension on them to balance the pull of the other side. Most Campy modern Campy road hubs build up with the NDS 50-55% of the DS, while the wheels in this hub are 62%. This allowed me to build in a larger buffer zone between too tight on the DS (rim failure) and too loose on the NDS (spoke failure).

I don't care if it's being jacked or relevant. It's giving me advertisement and a stimulating conversation at the same time! :D

Mr. Beanz 11-22-08 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanknight (Post 7898608)
I don't care if it's being jacked or relevant. It's giving me advertisement and a stimulating conversation at the same time! :D


But like you said, it should be fine either way if it's a good build. Just one of those details that is a preference of other builders. My view is that the stock equipment from Bonti/Trek/Specialized along with a few local handbuilders use the inside method on their wheels, the engineers at the MFG'ers have designed the wheel in this fashion, so it must be the best design. That and Sheldon say so!:p

Mr. Beanz 11-22-08 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripperj (Post 7898034)
Please make it simple, I'm dizzy too. The spokes on the inside of the drive side below are ??Trailing?? (i'm asking)

Somewhat simple. The spokes on the iside of the flange on the driveside of Cuda's new wheel will seem to point towards the front of the bike while rolling (against the grain) they are leading spokes. The spokes on the outside of the flange seem to go with the flow and are trailing spokes as tehy seem to come from behind. (look at the sheldon link/site for further 'splainin':D)

According to Sheldon, the inside spokes should be laced so that they are trailing spokes. His theory is trailing spokes are under more stress than the leading spkes. Being on the inside of the hub flange, they will be better supported since the stress may cause them to flex resulting in hitting of the derailleur. Plus the flange support makes them stronger so they don't flex as much or far. Plus, in this position, if the chain were to hit the wheel for some reason, it would hit the leading spokes which are under less stress causing less damage. If it hits the trailing spokes, it would cause more damage since they are under more stress. So the trailing should be inside the flange to avoid contact witht the cahin, derailleur and as support for the trailing spokes uder stress.

UK says he laced them so that if the chain goes into the spokes, the direction of the spoke would direct the chain back onto the cogs. From what Sheldon says, I'd rather have the chain hit the leading spokes and not the trailing since they are under more stress. UK says the direction willnot affect the wheel if it is build properly.


On the pic below, two different directions.

Left pic. Trailing spokes are outside of the flange (farside) I want my money back!:D. Built by a local builder before I started building my own. This wheel has a tension problem. Does it have to do with the lacing?

Right pic. Trailing spokes are on the insdide for support and avoiding contact with the chain and derailleur once under stress.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...me/flanges.jpg

cuda2k 11-22-08 10:09 AM

Guess I'll have to give a 500 and 1000mi ride report and see how the spoke tension is holding up. ;)

txvintage 11-22-08 11:51 AM

So after one disappointing google attempt, where does one get a set of these rims?


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:12 PM.