SushiJoe

Cagers are motorists.

mattm

well kudos to you for at least going!

so you must hate it when police cork for funerals, parades, etc?

i've seen cops cork for the governator's motorcade in seattle, they do it all the time. hell, they've even done it for seattle CM.

bfd.

SushiJoe

What's "corking?"
I don't know what critical mass is.
They don't do it here (at least I don't think they do).

mattm

corking is blocking an intersection until all of "our" traffic is through it - this happens when the mass is only halfway through a light, and it turns red.

so as not to break up the "mass," we cork to keep it as one.

same thing cops do at funerals, motorcades, etc.

mattm

btw looks like there is a CM in omaha: "Last Friday. Meet 5:00, Ride 5:30. At the arch at Gene Leahy Mall"

(from here: https://critical-mass.info/us-k-p.html#us)

SushiJoe

Ahhh, I got ya.

So what's it all for again? Fallen cyclists? Or different things depending on event? (Serious question)

bdcheung

I don't even draw a faint comparison between an unregistered, unlicensed "protest" and a funeral procession with police escort.

If you register your CM ride, request and receive police escort, then all the better for you. But if you break the law, then I've no sympathy.

mrbubbles

I trash CM after I tried it out, twice. Excessive swearing, holier than thou attitude, disorderly conducts, I saw two cyclists chasing after a car after they fail to cork him, and it's full of hippies smoking joints and drinking, most of the dedicated cyclists leave after finding out who the holler is about.

Originated as "Advocacy" for bicycles. Now it's just a gathering of people who have nothing better to do on a Friday evening. Besides, your bikes don't fit with the crowd, they'll look down on you with contempt. You're not cool unless you ride a steel fixie.

SushiJoe

Pot is for wussy.

bdcheung

Stop making this analogy - Critical Mass rides and funerals operate under completely different regulations.

Only one state, Nevada, specifically allows the lead or escort vehicle in a funeral procession to go through a red light. Five states, Arizona, Idaho, Kentucky, Montana, and North Dakota, grant funeral processions the right-of-way at intersections without regard to any traffic control signal. In these states, the escort vehicle driver can direct the procession to proceed through an intersection or make any necessary movements despite any traffic control signals. These laws imply that the lead funeral escort vehicle can disregard a red traffic signal.

In 15 other states, properly identified vehicles in a funeral procession can disregard a red light and pass through the intersection if the lead vehicle lawfully went through the signal when it was green and subsequently changed to red.

Proper identification usually involves lighted headlights, but some states also require other identification, such as flags or flashing lights. In Michigan, the law gives funeral processions the right-of-way at intersections, but it is not specific with respect to traffic signals. Several court decisions have interpreted the authority to include signalized intersections as well.

In Iowa, the law is not specific regarding intersections, but provides that drivers of vehicles in the procession cannot be charged with violating traffic rules and regulations with regard to traffic devices and signals, unless operating the vehicle recklessly.

Six other states also have laws relating to the continuity of funeral processions, although they do not specifically grant right-of-way.

Source

GP

No, because they keep traffic moving along to minimize the amount of time the intersection is blocked. Sometimes CMers will do this but other times they'll wait for people that are screwing around.

Sometimes delays in traffic happen. Waiting for people that are drunk or just wasting my time is inconsiderate. Why do some CMers think that their time is more important than mine?

mattm

it's everything from a rolling bike parade to a protest to a group ride, depending on who you ask. for me, it's a protest against car culture. but a fun protest.

funny you say that - because after we had a police escort a few months ago (following an "incident"), a local cop was quoted as making just that comparison. so the cops didn't mind, why do you?

btw in the history of civil disobedience (what CM is), i don't think "registering" your protest is at the top of the list... e.g. MLK, most of the marches/sit-ins were illegal!

excessive swearing? hippies? joints? drinking?

jeez, sounds horrible.. maybe the "ride of silence" is more for you. (although that ride is even worse about getting out a message, since they won't speak!)

ah, and if said fixie shows up to your "hammerfest," you woudn't give them weird looks? or is it just that roadies are so cool they can dish it out, but can't take it? maybe if CM yelled at each other more, roadies would take to it a little better.

(fwiw seattle CM is a mix of fixed gear hipsters in girl's jeans, weirdos on mtn bikes, freds, squids, tandems, xtra-cycles. i think every type of bike is represented at CM, and 60% of the bikes at my CM are road bikes)

bdcheung

Consistent with my previous point, if you register your CM and get whatever permits your municipality requires, then I have no problem with you blocking traffic to protect the "structural integrity" of your ride. Given your example, it seems the cop was commending you for registering the ride and being responsible. This still doesn't change the fact that many states have laws that give funeral processions the right-of-way in almost all situations. Not so for CM rides. There's a difference.

i'm finished.

SushiJoe

Hipster chicks are OK by me.
Pot is still for wussy.

mattm

me too, have a good one.

SushiJoe

Now that we've got that settled, who wants pie?

fly:yes/land:no

oh boy, here we go again. although, perhaps this fire may have been extinguished in the time it took me to post this.

1. the crux of the cm controversy lies with the the perception of cm to participants and to others. i agree completely that cm has an authentic core aimed at increasing bicycle awareness and providing a community for cyclists in a city. however, i feel that, despite a "perfect" ride (where there were no red lights, everyone rode single file, there was no cursing or swearing, no illegal substances, and all rules of the road were followed) the perception to motorists would simply be that those people are annoying. sad but true.

so... lets take that hypothesized conclusion to its next logical step: races. every race i have been to have at least a minimal amount of police, permits filed, etc. additionally, races aren't done as a demonstration hoping to illustrate the presence of bikes on the road. but, while these two features may distinguish cm from a race, the ultimate perception by non-cyclists is virtually the same. do you really think that the drivers think anything different when they see a pack pf 200 guys roll through an interesction vs. having to spend 10 minutes waiting behind a peloton at 25 mph? they don't care. that just galvanizes their dislike of cyclists.

therefore, if you are against cm because it is against the law, fine. but, if you are against it because it causes conflict between cyclists and motorists, you should either 1) question the conclusion i made above, or 2) not condone racing. (i suppose i can carve out a small place for those that are against cm because it has the opposite effect that it intends to have, and is therefore wasteful.)

2. are the people here that are against cm condoning what the officer did? i really hope not. the simple fact is, the officer was WRONG.

SushiJoe

Yes. 'F' him.

sfrider 

Yeah, it would be much better if they were all driving instead! 500 riders in CM is vastly less detrimental than 500 additional cars on the streets.

gsteinb

No. 'F' them.

I'm rubber, and you're glue....

SushiJoe

'F' everyone and everything!!
Hell, 'F' me!!

ZeCanon

Whether or not the goals and ideals of a critical mass ride are worthy means nothing. NOTHING.

The results are what matter, and the result is a whole bunch of pissed off motorists. One step forward, two steps back. Critical mass rides are a horribly counter-productive way or raising bicycle awareness.

So cars are more aware of us now. They are aware that cyclists are traffic blocking *******s, keeping them from getting home after a long day at work. Perception is far more important that reality, which is what the CM idiots don't get.

botto 

Good to see a cop held responsible for his idiotic and malicious behavior, but WTF does this have to do with road cycling?

SushiJoe

Most likely, not much.

mrbubbles

What about people in buses? 500 people in buses is less space than 500 people on bikes.