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Campy drive with Shimano hubs/cassette, Shiftmate crucial?

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Campy drive with Shimano hubs/cassette, Shiftmate crucial?

Old 01-03-09, 09:50 PM
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Markj61
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Campy drive with Shimano hubs/cassette, Shiftmate crucial?

I'm planning on running some Open Pros with Shimano Ultegra hubs/cassette on a bike I'm building up this winter with Centaur 10 speed Ergopower brifters and Veloce Crankset, FD, and RD.
Still stumped on which chain to get- thinkin' it should be Shimano.

I know this has been discussed a lot before, and I've searched past threads, but there seems to be three camps:

1) it works fine as is, mixing the bits
2) It works OK, but not as smooth as all one brand
3) It only works well with a Shiftmate (or conversion cassette)

I'm placing an order this weekend form PBK for a few outstanding bits and want to check other's experience in this area. I may just try it without the shiftmate first and add it if it's sub-par.

Last edited by Markj61; 01-04-09 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 01-03-09, 09:55 PM
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Or you could get an American Classic cassette. It fits on Shimano hubs but is spaced for the Campy drivetrain. Works for me.
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Old 01-03-09, 10:10 PM
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Campagnolo 10 speed with 9 speed Shimano, works fine.

Campagnolo 10 speed lever with 9 speed Shimano cassette and RD, works fine.

Campagnolo 10 speed lever with 10 speed SRAM RD and 10 speed Shimano cassette, works fine.
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Old 01-04-09, 02:00 AM
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campy rd/campy shifters 10 speed with shimano chain/ cassette works fines
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Old 01-04-09, 03:10 AM
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I run a shimano cassette on my reynolds dv46t with a chorus groupset without any problems I have found that a KMC chain is quieter than my record chain
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Old 01-04-09, 05:51 AM
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I ran Campy drivetrain with Shimano cassette and KMC chain for 2-3 years with no major issues. It could be noisy in a gear depending on the cassette, but it was generally like the 19-21.
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Old 01-04-09, 06:38 AM
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campy rd/campy shifters 10 speed with shimano chain/ cassette works fine
That what I've heard, but have also heard from those who have had problems.
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Old 01-04-09, 07:01 AM
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I'd try it first before getting a shiftmate, if you're so inclined.

If you get a shiftmate, it doesn't hurt, but I tried it without and it seemed to work for me.
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Old 01-04-09, 07:06 AM
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Fine is a relative term. No is won't shift as well as an all Campy bike...even with a shiftmate. The reason is inside the ergolevers. Btw, please don't use the term brifters on a bike forum. Campy has a proprietary design of their shift rachet that matches their cassettes. One has to ask at the end of the day, what is the difference between Shimano and Campy 10s cassettes because the overall cassette width is pretty close dictated by wheel spacing. With Campy, they stagger the spacing of the cogs in back. Why? For cross chain allowance. The larger the cog, the greater the propensity for cross chain interference so they space the larger cogs further apart than the middle cogs which are spaced wider than the smallest 5 cogs. The philosophical debate as to the benefit of this design is for another discussion and no doubt was debated heavily at Campagnolo when they went to the trouble of developing it. A Shimano cassette will generally shift pretty good on a Campy bike without a Shiftmate but even a Shiftmate will not allow for tiered spacing of cogs per Campy cassette spacing. One further thing to consider...if you mix and match Campy shifters say with a Shimano or Sram RD...that's when you get into trouble because the pull ratio of the RD is based upon shifter index wheel diameter.

What should you do? Personally, I would ebay the Shimano wheelset and replace with Campy for just about the same price but if not, I would purchase a conversion cassette and forego a Shiftmate. If you run a Shimano cassette, you should be fine if a keen tuner because the biggest difference is graduated and not net spacing. But make no mistake...mixing components will disparage performance and if you are building a bike and choosing components, you have to ask yourself why compromise when you can sell your wheelset and properly match components for almost the same cost.
Good luck with your build.

Last edited by Campag4life; 01-04-09 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 01-04-09, 07:28 AM
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Campag, once dialed in, I've had 0 issues with my shimagnolo setup. I swap shimano wheels without issue and I raced with the setup without a single missed shift.
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Old 01-04-09, 07:38 AM
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ˆˆˆThanks for the in-depth.
I got both the Open Pro/Ultegra new for net $180 at PB a few years back, so it would be tough to swap without at least an additional hundred or so. And this build not completely from-scratch. It is mix of assembling a bit of what I have with a new Veloce/Centaur drive.

So given those wheels, would you reco going with the American Classic conversion cassette?
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Old 01-04-09, 09:20 AM
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Why not just consider that facts? Campy spacing is 4.15mm and Shimano is 3.95mm, so the Campy RD will overshift with a Shimano cassette. To make this situation tolerable, you have to center the RD as best you can in the middle cogs and then use the limit screws at both ends to restrict the overtravel. Unless you understand what is going on, you'll be guessing about how to adjust the cable tension.

Campy does have some very minor non-uniform spacing between cogs 6-7 but it's not true that all of the larger cogs have wider spacing than the smallest 5.

Using a shiftmate is the best idea, since it will correct the overtravel of the RD.

People who claim that the uncorrected setup "works fine" are just reporting on the shifting and ignoring the fact that the RD is often running in a misaligned condition. I would want precise shifting and good chain alignment.

There is another trick way to reduce the overtravel, by clamping the shift cable further away from the clamp bolt, but it's very touchy and not reliable.

As for which chain to use, Shimano will wear out as quickly as any you can buy. Campy will last the longest, but might cost a few dollars more, depending on where you buy. The KMC DX10 SC is a good value, if you can get it on sale for $20-25, since it includes a master link. A Veloce chain for around $25-30 is also a good buy, but there is extra cost if you want a master link.
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Old 01-04-09, 09:23 AM
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Why not just get the AC conversion cassette?
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Old 01-04-09, 09:28 AM
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ive done it. it shifts ok. Its mildly tolerable but full campy is by far the best of the options.
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Old 01-04-09, 09:38 AM
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ac conversion cassette is the ticket here, no compromises.
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Old 01-04-09, 09:52 AM
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See what I mean?...Lots of different opinions/camps on this.

I'm thinking one of these 2 options, they both net out about the same in cost:

A) Ultegra cassette with Shiftmate or
B) AC conversion cassette


the above success stories here so far lean me to the AC, but I remember other threads where the Shiftmate came out on top...
I do think that thing looks goofy, tho.
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Old 01-04-09, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Markj61
See what I mean?...Lots of different opinions/camps on this.

I'm thinking one of these 2 options, they both net out about the same in cost:

A) Ultegra cassette with Shiftmate or
B) AC conversion cassette


the above success stories here so far lean me to the AC, but I remember other threads where the Shiftmate came out on top...
I do think that thing looks goofy, tho.
Well, there are compromises with either setup. Not everyone thinks the AC cassette shifts that well.

If you really decide to commit to a Campy drivetrain, the smartest thing to do is get a Campy compatible rear wheel and use a cheap 2009 Centaur cassette with it.

Personally, I never mismatch drivetrain parts. If I have something that I don't need, I sell it on E-bay and the get the proper parts. I've used nothing but Campy since 1995, so mismatched wheels is never a problem. I just sold off a whole bunch of Campy 10 parts to switch to 11 speed. The price that people will pay for used Campy parts is amazing.
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Old 01-04-09, 10:42 AM
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I do not recommend AC cassettes, they don't shift as well- wears out fast. Instead, go for wheel manufacturing cassettes... more expensive but worth it IMHO. I ll be trying out SRAM RD with my Campy drivetrain and can let you know how it works; the shifting ratio on the SRAM and Campy are very identicial per Zinn's observation and his works well so Im gonna give it a try.
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Old 01-04-09, 10:51 AM
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I tried Chorus RD/Shifter with a Shimano 9sp and then 10sp wheel without either a Shiftmate or AC conversion cassette. It does NOT work perfectly. You always have 1 cog in the rear that doesn't quite work.

Can you ride it like that? Sure. I used it for a few months that way and didn't think anything of it for a while, but ultimately I went back to my Campy Vento wheels and stayed with it even though my Velomax/Shimano wheels are better.
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Old 01-04-09, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by RHOsbrink
I do not recommend AC cassettes, they don't shift as well- wears out fast. Instead, go for wheel manufacturing cassettes... more expensive but worth it IMHO. I ll be trying out SRAM RD with my Campy drivetrain and can let you know how it works; the shifting ratio on the SRAM and Campy are very identicial per Zinn's observation and his works well so Im gonna give it a try.
Zinn never bothered to check the Campy cable pull very closely. The SRAM RD is supposed to require a uniform 3mm of cable pull, per shift, while the Campy shifter pulls significantly less. After the first 5 shifts, instead of 15mm, you'll only have 12.5-13mm, which is quite a bit short. After that, you get about 3mm for two shifts, then 3.5mm for the last two.

If you only changed the RD and use it with a Campy cassette, then you'll have a double problem, with too little cable pull and a cassette that's longer than the SRAM/Shimano.
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Old 01-04-09, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Zinn never bothered to check the Campy cable pull very closely. The SRAM RD is supposed to require a uniform 3mm of cable pull, per shift, while the Campy shifter pulls significantly less. After the first 5 shifts, instead of 15mm, you'll only have 12.5-13mm, which is quite a bit short. After that, you get about 3mm for two shifts, then 3.5mm for the last two.

If you only changed the RD and use it with a Campy cassette, then you'll have a double problem, with too little cable pull and a cassette that's longer than the SRAM/Shimano.
You are a knowledgable guy about bikes and I always enjoy your perspective on here Dave. You do contradict yourself though as what you write just above is correct and you took slight exception to what I wrote above. Campy has three separate cable pull tiers with their 10s ergolevers as I stated above which reflects the spacing of their cassettes. Anybody who has every had an unpinned Campy 10s cassette apart and has mixed up the three different spacer widths has witnessed this first hand.
This is what you wrote a few threads ago which doesn't correspond to what you wrote just above: Note: Campy's cable pull does correspond to respective cog spacing.
Campy does have some very minor non-uniform spacing between cogs 6-7 but it's not true that all of the larger cogs have wider spacing than the smallest 5.

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Old 01-04-09, 12:39 PM
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This is my experience. I ran veloce 10sp shifters with shimano 9sp rd and cassette. I could never get all of the gears to work. I ordered a shift mate and the shifting is perfect, although there is very little room for error before the shifts become less percise.

I personally feel that a 25 dollar part that cannot wear out is a better investment than an expensive cassette that will wear out. If you have anymore questions about my experiance, pm me
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Old 01-04-09, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Zinn never bothered to check the Campy cable pull very closely. The SRAM RD is supposed to require a uniform 3mm of cable pull, per shift, while the Campy shifter pulls significantly less. After the first 5 shifts, instead of 15mm, you'll only have 12.5-13mm, which is quite a bit short. After that, you get about 3mm for two shifts, then 3.5mm for the last two.

If you only changed the RD and use it with a Campy cassette, then you'll have a double problem, with too little cable pull and a cassette that's longer than the SRAM/Shimano.
When I had my 2005 Veloce 10 speed shifter disassembled, the notches in the ratchet ring were evenly spaced, so the cable pull would be the same for each shift. Is it the geometry of the rear derailleur that makes the shifts move 3.5mm on the last two shifts?
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Old 01-04-09, 12:44 PM
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OP, just get the shiftmate. You get to use your setup and have the shifts work pretty close to flawlessly as long as you adjust it right.

If you get the cash later, you can get a campy wheelset, but I didn't see any reason to do this when my setup was working.

Try it, if it doesn't work well, then get a shiftmate. The shiftmate will be your best bet to having it work.
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Old 01-04-09, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by enjoi
This is my experience. I ran veloce 10sp shifters with shimano 9sp rd and cassette. I could never get all of the gears to work. I ordered a shift mate and the shifting is perfect, although there is very little room for error before the shifts become less percise.

I personally feel that a 25 dollar part that cannot wear out is a better investment than an expensive cassette that will wear out. If you have anymore questions about my experiance, pm me
10 speed campy shifters and a 9 speed shimano cassette need some alternate routing or a shiftmate.

In most cases 10 speed campy and a 10 speed shimano cassette work okay to well.
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