d2create

I'm looking at building up a classic Italian Steel bike and narrowing my search down to these two.
Is there a big difference in build quality, tubing, ride quality, etc between the two?
I love the Sintesi but it's almost $1900 for frame with chrome fork where the compact is $1295 with chrome fork.

I see that the Gios has a shorter top tube which would probably be good for me because my torso is a bit short compared to my legs. I'm 5'8" with a 32" pant inseam.

https://tinyurl.com/j5wv7


https://www.ridetommasini.com/frames/sintesi.html

RoyIII

I have a compact pro and I love it! I'm sure both frames are excellent, but I'm partial to the Gios.

d2create

Thanks, good to hear something favorable about the Gios.

botto 

don't know anything about the tommasini, but i'm no fan of gios and their square geometry.

d2create

I was going over my fit numbers spit out by the calculator on Competitive Cyclist.
It says I need:

Top tube length: 53.7 - 54.1
Seat tube range c-t: 59.5 - 60.0

closest Gios is 54/55
closest Tom is 54/53

I probably need custom. Unless I can raise the seat to make up for the short st?

DaveSSS 

I would never buy a frame based on the output from the CC fit calculator. Unless you've never owned a bike that fit reasonably well, it's better to compare the geometry between your old bike and a prospective new bike.

FWIW, the Tommasini is a better product, with a lot better paint and probably better chrome work, but maybe not $600 better. That price sounds high. I bought a new Sintesi in 1995 for about $800. It was a very nice frame.

You need to pay attention to the head tube length, so you don't end up with a big stack of spacers and/or a flipped up stem.

Also, the seat tube angle affects the reach. A steeper STA increases the reach, so a little shorter TT on the Gios might not produce as short a reach as you think.

Here's a really old picture. Campy 8 speed, 1995, Shamal wheels, flite saddle, ITM bars with traditional ramp down to the brake hoods.

d2create

Thanks, dave.
I do know that I've always had reach problems on my bikes.
I definitely have a short torso compared to my legs.

Oh, and I think the us dollar and lack of demand is driving the italian steel prices.

DaveSSS 

I've got a short torso too, with an 83cm cycling inseam and only 169cm height. That frame is a 55cm, which is larger than I would choose now. It's got a 110mm stem and bars with about an 85mm reach. Before I sold that bike, I increased the stem length to a 120mm.

These days, my pedal and shoe stack height would be 10-15mm lower with Speedplays and no 3-hole adapter, so my saddle would be lower. I'd buy a 53cm frame today.

d2create

Ya, we're really close! I'm a 84.7cm inseam and 171.5cm total height.

The fit calculator put me on a 53cm top tube frame for competitive fit but I usually like the french fit better, which is the specs i posted above.

I'm now waiting to hear back from the Tommasini factory in Italy to see if they think I'd fit a stock size or if I would benefit from a custom frame which they'll do for the same price, it's just a 12 week wait.

alancw3

both nice classic bikes but i think the tommasini is better.

RideTommasini

Our product is quite different than Gios - so make sure you compare apples to apples before you buy. Obviously I am biased but there are a lot of people who own Tommasini frames here on the forums that would be happy to give you feedback. The reason our pricing is higher is due to the quality of the materials and craftsmanship that go into making our frames. Also just so you know, the entire frame is chromed on the sintesi and tecno frames - not just the exposed chrome areas like most other companies do.

Timmi

This isn't just about fit (as that can be compensated with seat post and stem length), as there are are
IMMENSE differences between these two bikes in terms of handling.

The GIOS frame geometry makes it VERY fast turning and cornering, a bit too nervous for the average rider. If you like to go through turns still pedalling at full speed in criteriums while the others whimpily put on their brakes in a tight turn, the Gios is for you. I'm not sure about this size, but expect a bit of toe overlap with the front tire... not a big deal... you get used to it, and it only briefly scrapes on low-speed turns.

The Tomassini frame geometry is conventional as outlined in Cinelli's guidelines published in 1972 and which the majority of framebuilders and manufacturers follow to this day. (no one seems to have read the part in the geometry chapter of that Cinelli book where he states that once the roads get better we'll be able to use steeper angles). It is a well-behaved racing bike that you can also go on long rides with, and it'll handle very similarly to other racing bikes. A good all around bike that will get more stares than a Gios. If the Tommasini is too long for you, either buy the next size down (with a shorter top tube) using a longer seat post, OR buy your originally intended size and get a shorter stem. Don't get me wrong... although I say well-behaved, it is still a "racing" geometry. A smaller frame will make it slightly more nervous, but still not as much as a Gios.

BobLoblaw

+1 for the Sintesi.

I've been riding mine since 2005. It's an incredibly comfortable bike, yet very lively and responsive. On the descents, the handling is telepathic. I'm running full Ultegra 9 and Ksyrium wheels, and it goes just under 20 lbs.

It's also beautiful. The chrome lugs are stunning, the chrome stays an elegant touch. Every race or group ride, I get compliments.

My opinion, you can't do better but you could certainly do worse.

BL

Timmi

I have a hunch that the Tommassini is a better handling bike at high speeds especially on descents... while the GIOS is a better criterium bike hands down. Both are legendary... although I agree, that Tommassini does seem to put in the extra effort for aesthetics... someone has to... there is a market for everything, and everything has a reason to it's existence.

I had an aggressive geometry bike, not a Gios though but an italian made Rino... and I had to lean over the handlebars while sprinting in 52x12 at 100 km/h on a descent descent to keep the front wheel from vibrating back in the day... like I said... a nervous geometry isn't for everyone.

But I wouldn't want people to fall into the trap of going on looks alone...
getting the proper bike for intended use will bring far more joy than the compliments of others ever will.
If you don't do 50+mph on a descent, predictability on a descent is a moot point.
Remember... you buy this for yourself... you don't spend that kind of money to make others happy.

BTW... not that it's important, but 20 lbs for such a recent bike your's seems a bit heavy... is this standard for Ultegra? I don't know... as my 1980 Vicini when fully loaded also weighs just under 20 lbs and I only have vintage components on it (no campy, but lighter and better stuff believe it or not).

Jurgen

+1

Except BB drop can throw a wrench into using that as a guide.

Lots of bikes to consider here if you want new Italian steel... DeRosa, Cinelli, and Colnago all make frames in (the upper range of) this price range.

You might want to browse GVH.

(Ah, long legs/short torso. I'm 179 cm tall with 91 cm inseam.)

Timmi

That is incorrect. Seat tube length is calculated from the center of the bottom bracket's axle, no matter what the drop is.
Whether you feel that seat tube length is from center of BB to the top of the top tube (correct), or to the top of the tube's extention above that (incorrect but common), the seat tube length is still measured in relation to the center of the BB, not in relation to some other point that would be affected by drop.

It will affect handling slightly, as a higher bottom bracket would benefit from a bit less fork rake so as to increase trail so that the offset when turning compensates for the higher position... but now I'm getting technical and it wouldn't be pertinent to this thread to discuss that aspect.

Timmi

The head tube length doesn't change your spacers (or stem extention for threaded column as in your posted picture, which doesn't use spacers anyways!)... because the top tube is horizontal and thus still at the same height, which is a direct function of seat tube length (and angle but we won't fuss over 1 degree). Different head tube length on the same frame will diminish the front brake's reach to the rim... this, combined with a non-, semi-, or fully-sloping fork crown will deternine the fork blades' length and thus the rigidity of the front end (this affects handling during sprints versus vibration dampening capabilities).

Your seat tube angle doesn't affect reach as the actual top tube length gets quoted for the bike's given seat tube angle. STA is more a question of positioning over the pedals, not reach... and the top tube is made to a length that the rider needs... and once again, if the bike specifies X-length seat tube, why are you fussing over seat tube angle affecting reach anyways? It's all in a given bicycle's specs, regardless of that the angle is. (ie: a 54cm top tube is the same length, and offers the same reach, on a 74 STA as it does on a 68 STA, give or take a couple millimetres given the seat post, relatively short in relation to seat tube, extends further and changes that slightly as it IS affected by the angle, but this really doesn't make a difference worth splitting hairs over)

Jurgen

Err... but BB drop could affect head tube.

You're right, however, using HT as a guide for saddle to handlebar drop is mostly an offshoot of non-level top tube geometries. (For hopefully obvious reasons I dare not say "compact" in this context.)

Timmi

Yes, of course Jürgen. But what I'm saying, is that once your BB drop is locked in ("do we make a track bike, racing bike, touring bike"), and seat tube length is selected, the length (height) of your stem is basically dependent on the height of your seat post and how much drop you want in relation to your seat height.
Since we ARE talking about a Gios or Tommassini, in THIS particulat thread, that DO have a horizontal top tube, your statement was incorrect and this had to be mentioned.
There is no need to over-complexify things for someone trying to make a purchasing decision... expecially not when the information you gave can't even apply to either of the models he's considering for purchase.

Jurgen

Wow, nice backpedal.

My "information" was in response to DaveSSS's point on HT length in general. You somehow took that to mean ST... which I wasn't talking about. (And some steel bikes, Pegorettis for example, do have HTs that extent up beyond the ST.)

Speaking of ST, however, your conversations with e-RICHIE and others, however, should have made it clear that BB drop isn't "locked in" as you suggest. You could, in theory, design a bike with little BB drop and a long horizontal HT and short ST and thus would have a lot of drop for most riders if one wanted such a beast (not that e-RICHIE would build it).

Bottom line: you can't just look at TT and HT (or even ST) and decide on paper whether a bike will fit. But thanks for the "correction".

Timmi

Jürgen: you're not reading. I said, that once you select a BB height, that is what is meant by "locked in"... once you make up your mind about it... soll ich es auf Deutsch erklären? wenn nicht, dan tuh bitte richtig lesen!

We all know that some bikes have a sloping top tube... just not the two that we are discussing in this thread.

I don't know how to better explain this to you. I give up.

Bottom line, you beginning to be very annoying by obstinately refusing to admit that you either misread, misinformed, or posted information that is not relevant to these two bicycles. May I suggest you re-read Post #1 to better appreciate the topic at hand.

mrrabbit 

I ride a 2001 Sintesi...

It is definitely not a criterium bike - it has what I describe as a tad of understeer - I have to force the bike into a sharp turn when I need to...

The seatube is laid back - the headtube is laid back as well - so reach and comfort is not a problem.

It is definitely a road bike that can handle distance with comfort - and race if necessary. It does fine on hills - but it ain't a stiff Masi 3V if that's what you want...

On descents - handling is excellent - you are completely in control even at 50 MPH - i.e., no jitter concerns.

My wife calls it hanging art when I'm not riding it...it really does grab folks eyeballs.


Gios Compacts are very nice framesets...however paint can be an issue. A friend of mine likes Gios - he has a couple - and both came out of the box with obvious paint defects. Despite the paint - he is quite happy with his Gios's.

=8-)

bellweatherman

Tough call. If the Gios fits, go for it. They do have a steeper seat angle and shorter top tube than most other racing frames, but you already say that your torso is really short.

Timmi

thank you Mr. Rabbit for your post. Your experience confirms what the frame geometry tables on these bikes were already suggesting. these two bikes are completely opposites in terms of handling. although fit is important, so is "feel". perhaps we can have a word from our shopping-around friend, as to a little more information on the intended use... if he's a young sprinter, or more in to long rides? perhaps all this insight that has been provided here will either confirm one of his choices, or have him look at something better suited for him.

531Aussie

'Completely different', and 'IMMENSE differences', in bold and upper case, really? Is this what you actually mean, or do you just mean "they handle differently"? If you have a tendancy for hyperbole, I'll keep that in mind if I read other posts of yours.

It's tough to find detailed geomtery for these frames which even includes head tube angle. A mid/large Tomassini has about a 73 degree seat tube, and most of the Gios' are 74.

I have a late '80s Raleigh with what's meant to be 74 and 74 head and seat tube, and while the steering is definitely on the twitchy side, I wouldn't say it's "completely different" to my other steel bikes with 73 and 73. I've swapped forks around quite a bit with these bikes, and I'd say this has made bigger handling differences than anything else.

So, if a mid/large Gios is 74/74, and the same size Tommasini is 73/73, i'd be surprised if they were totally different bikes.

By the way, this thread is a couple of months old, so I figure the guy has bought his bike