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Here's a paceline idea:

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Here's a paceline idea:

Old 05-14-09, 07:10 PM
  #1  
daxr
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Here's a paceline idea:

This thread got me thinking: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=541102

Now, from the driver's perspective the line keeping right isn't the problem, its that every time it looks like its going to be clear to pass a guy peels off the front and drifts back to the left of the line, blocking her lane along the way.

"Keep to the right" is the bane of serious vehicular cyclists, and I hate to ride in the gutter and crap by the road myself. In the above example it also becomes the whole problem with the paceline. So what if the paceline took the lane as the safest and soundest path (assuming 25-30 mph speed limits), and recycled riders along the right side? A driver coming up from behind, probably slightly speeding, would approach the group and slow in behind it naturally. The first rider recycling back, instead of cutting back over in front of the car could wave it into the paceline, treating it like another rider. Recycling riders would fall in line behind the vehicle, which would soon be at the front of the pack and free to move on, safely, without any undue stress or extraordinary measures.

The more I think about it the more I think it would work, and it would be a solution that would make pacelining practical on many more roads. Its been some time since I rode in a paceline myself, but the thing about shouting "car back" and then everyone breaking rhythm and scattering to the shoulder always seemed a little ridiculous. If the recycle-to-the-right rule worked, it could get the paceline out into the road and make it easier and safer for car traffic to pass through.

Or so I think. Any other opinions? I recall there was no end of motorist/cyclist confrontations last summer, and am expecting the same. If you notice my sig line, my perspective is that we will continue to have more cyclists in the mix, and perhaps a recycle-to-the-right rule would help? Posting here because you guys are the paceliners - if there's any positive response I'll put it up in A&S for more opinions. Thanks!
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Old 05-14-09, 07:12 PM
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most people would not go for it. i'm not letting a car draft me.
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Old 05-14-09, 07:16 PM
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You want to put a totally unaware driver of a 2 ton car into a pack of cyclists at 30 mph? Wow.
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Old 05-14-09, 07:18 PM
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Almost no car driver would be comfortable with bikes in front on the right and behind them.
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Old 05-14-09, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by fordmanvt View Post
Almost no car driver would be comfortable with bikes in front on the right and behind them.
I don't know. I think the natural reaction of any motorist approaching slower traffic is to come up close and tailgate. In this case, all the driver would have to do is tailgate the cyclist right up to the front of the pack. Assuming there was some shoulder for a recycle to the right, I also think a driver wouldn't have a problem with passing cyclists on the shoulder...
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Old 05-14-09, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by daxr View Post
I think the natural reaction of any motorist approaching slower traffic is to come up close and tailgate.
Perhaps if the slower traffic were another car, this might be true.

From what I've seen, the natural reaction from a motorist approaching a bicycle from behind is to swing left. I don't think too many drivers want to come up close and tailgate a bicyclist unless they are purposely trying to be aggressive. The natural reaction of most drivers is to steer clear of any exposed body in front of your car, whether it be a pedestrian or a bicyclist.

When I'm driving, I certainly wouldn't want a bicyclist to be riding directly in front of me. If he hit his brakes too suddenly, I might end up running him over.
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Old 05-14-09, 08:32 PM
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Let me get this straight: you want to teach motorists how to rotate through a paceline?
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Old 05-14-09, 08:35 PM
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It's hard enough to teach cyclists to rotate through a paceline.
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Old 05-14-09, 08:42 PM
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This sounds like an ideal world, where the motorists tip the caps to the cyclists and yell chapeau as they rotate off the front.
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Old 05-14-09, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
Let me get this straight: you want to teach motorists how to rotate through a paceline?
Your self-restraint is admirable.
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Old 05-14-09, 09:05 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by jccaclimber View Post
It's hard enough to teach cyclists to rotate through a paceline.
If you read it, all the car has to do is drive straight - no rotation involved. But, okay its not gonna work. The thing about a driver's reaction not being to come up behind cyclists but to speed up and swerve by on the left is unfortunately the case.

Screw 'em all over again then. I'd just have to add as a side idea, if you're running a paceline close to the speed limit its still safer to run the line down the middle in the lane and the recycling riders off the right side.

Not that I've ever even seen a paceline in my neck of the woods...but still.
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Old 05-14-09, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by daxr View Post
I don't know. I think the natural reaction of any motorist approaching slower traffic is to come up close and tailgate. In this case, all the driver would have to do is tailgate the cyclist right up to the front of the pack. Assuming there was some shoulder for a recycle to the right, I also think a driver wouldn't have a problem with passing cyclists on the shoulder...
There's your problem right there.
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Old 05-14-09, 09:05 PM
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I have SUVs draft off me all the time. I am the sole reason SUVs are still allowed on the road MPG wise. I keep my weight on for AMERICA!
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Old 05-14-09, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ckelly49 View Post
There's your problem right there.
Most roads have a foot or two, and those that don't are a problem to ride on, paceline or not. One of the big problems is to defeat the notion that just because there is a shoulder, that's where all the cyclists need to go.
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Old 05-14-09, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by daxr View Post
Its been some time since I rode in a paceline myself, but the thing about shouting "car back" and then everyone breaking rhythm and scattering to the shoulder always seemed a little ridiculous.
Originally Posted by daxr View Post
Not that I've ever even seen a paceline in my neck of the woods...but still.
No kidding.
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Old 05-14-09, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
No kidding.
I quit racing in '87, and only did group rides sporadically since then. Moved out to the sticks 10 years ago. Here, through winter, it was just me and one other guy on the road - I could tell by the tracks (or complete lack thereof) in the snow on the mup. I've put down about 3000 miles in 09 to date, so I've been out, but since its getting warmer I've only seen about four or five guys in kits total on the road so far....you guys in the bigger cities are lucky!

Last edited by daxr; 05-14-09 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 05-15-09, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
Let me get this straight: you want to teach motorists how to rotate through a paceline?
Only if they'd be subjected to yelling as well.
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Old 05-15-09, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by daxr View Post
This thread got me thinking: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=541102

Now, from the driver's perspective the line keeping right isn't the problem, its that every time it looks like its going to be clear to pass a guy peels off the front and drifts back to the left of the line, blocking her lane along the way.

"Keep to the right" is the bane of serious vehicular cyclists, and I hate to ride in the gutter and crap by the road myself. In the above example it also becomes the whole problem with the paceline. So what if the paceline took the lane as the safest and soundest path (assuming 25-30 mph speed limits), and recycled riders along the right side? A driver coming up from behind, probably slightly speeding, would approach the group and slow in behind it naturally. The first rider recycling back, instead of cutting back over in front of the car could wave it into the paceline, treating it like another rider. Recycling riders would fall in line behind the vehicle, which would soon be at the front of the pack and free to move on, safely, without any undue stress or extraordinary measures.

The more I think about it the more I think it would work, and it would be a solution that would make pacelining practical on many more roads.
Its been some time since I rode in a paceline myself, but the thing about shouting "car back" and then everyone breaking rhythm and scattering to the shoulder always seemed a little ridiculous. If the recycle-to-the-right rule worked, it could get the paceline out into the road and make it easier and safer for car traffic to pass through.

Or so I think. Any other opinions? I recall there was no end of motorist/cyclist confrontations last summer, and am expecting the same. If you notice my sig line, my perspective is that we will continue to have more cyclists in the mix, and perhaps a recycle-to-the-right rule would help? Posting here because you guys are the paceliners - if there's any positive response I'll put it up in A&S for more opinions. Thanks!
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Old 05-15-09, 08:30 AM
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so the entire group except leader drafts the car until they are all ahead of the starting leader?
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Old 05-15-09, 08:34 AM
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I seriously hope this post is a (lame) attempt at satire.
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Old 05-15-09, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BustaQuad View Post
I seriously hope this post is a (lame) attempt at satire.
No, really, it was an idea as to whether recycling to the right would be a partial solution to the whole "somebody yelled at my paceline" thing that has been debated recently, and will probably come up over and over again over the summer.

Posted here because you guys are the experts, and there's not much I can try in my local as I have yet to see enough roadies here to even start a paceline.

Anyway, the basic idea is pretty much answered as a non-starter, and it was mentioned probably correctly that a motorist's natural instinct is not to drive behind a cyclist, regardless of speed, but to swing left and accelerate.

Thanks for the input guys.
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Old 05-15-09, 09:20 AM
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scary...

cyclists don't have brake lights. what happens if there's a sudden decrease in speed by the cyclists? do you trust a non-cyclist motorist to react quickly enough while they are "drafting" the paceline with their 2-ton vehicle? didn't think so.
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Old 05-15-09, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by tubescreamerx View Post
scary...

cyclists don't have brake lights. what happens if there's a sudden decrease in speed by the cyclists? do you trust a non-cyclist motorist to react quickly enough while they are "drafting" the paceline with their 2-ton vehicle? didn't think so.
...that's probably what motorists would think, and maybe a part of why they're prone to the "swing left and accelerate". Cars are inherently less manuevarable and ponderously slow to react.

As mentioned, I live in a cyclist-poor area so not much group riding for 10 years, but I do recall one general rule - if you brake or decelerate suddenly in a group ride, your are going to be yelled at.
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Old 05-15-09, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by daxr View Post
...that's probably what motorists would think, and maybe a part of why they're prone to the "swing left and accelerate". Cars are inherently less manuevarable and ponderously slow to react.

As mentioned, I live in a cyclist-poor area so not much group riding for 10 years, but I do recall one general rule - if you brake or decelerate suddenly in a group ride, your are going to be yelled at.
Suddenly from the perspective of the paceline and suddenly from the perspective of the car are not the same thing. Cars usually hold back a reasonable distance until it is safe to pass and then do so. The "reasonable distance" and "safe to pass" can vary from driver to driver and of course that assumes they are not upset and trying to run you over, but it would certainly never work for all of the reasons stated. Additionally, cars can brake much faster than cyclists, and if the paceline was immediately behind the car (drafting off of it) it would be very easy for the car to slow down and have the riders plow into it.

When I draft behind cars I am always very careful to have an out (and have had to use it). Also, drivers are often uncomfortable with a rider right on their tail. Maybe another cyclist could handle it without freaking out but other than that fuggetaboutit.
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Old 05-17-09, 07:09 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
Let me get this straight: you want to teach motorists how to rotate through a paceline?
Look at the bright side - so many more opportunities to yell!

V.
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