does anyone NOT wear a helmet?
11-16-09, 08:59 PM
#426
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I've already posted the numbers, countless times.
A bike helmet is only designed to absorb the energy of a fall over type impact: any additional energy is going to be transmitted to the head. If you aren't moving and just fall over, your head will hit the ground at roughly 12mph, with about 1300 joules of energy. If your head is going 30mph when it hits the ground/car/whatever, that's about 6150 joules. The helmet will potentially subtract its 1300, leaving you with a 4850 joule impact. That's the same as from a helmetless 27mph impact.
Does anyone ever post, "i'd have been dead if I was going 30 mph but luckily I was only going 27."? No. But they always say they'd be dead if they didn't have a helmet. But all that helmet is doing for you is that very modest 1300 joule savings, which is equivalent to a few mph slower impact.
A bike helmet is only designed to absorb the energy of a fall over type impact: any additional energy is going to be transmitted to the head. If you aren't moving and just fall over, your head will hit the ground at roughly 12mph, with about 1300 joules of energy. If your head is going 30mph when it hits the ground/car/whatever, that's about 6150 joules. The helmet will potentially subtract its 1300, leaving you with a 4850 joule impact. That's the same as from a helmetless 27mph impact.
Does anyone ever post, "i'd have been dead if I was going 30 mph but luckily I was only going 27."? No. But they always say they'd be dead if they didn't have a helmet. But all that helmet is doing for you is that very modest 1300 joule savings, which is equivalent to a few mph slower impact.
11-16-09, 10:31 PM
#427
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It's stupid logic. Let me put it this way: do you want me to hit you on the head with a hard object (@ ~1,250 J) three or four times? Why would you choose four?
11-17-09, 12:37 AM
#429
RacingBear
Snell standard, which is only a recommendation the actual enforced/required standard is lower. https://www.smf.org/standards/b/b95std.html
Relevant sections E4.3 and E4.4.
Relevant sections E4.3 and E4.4.
E4.3 Test Impacts
Each sample will be subjected to no more than four test impacts. Test impact sites shall be on or above the test line. Rivets, vents and any other helmet feature within this region shall be valid test sites. Similarly, no allowance shall be made for the cut of the helmet either between the fore and rear planes or at the rear centerline; no matter how closely the edge of the helmet encroaches on the test line. However, if a test impact is sited closer than 120 mm to any previous test impact site on that sample, that impact shall be declared invalid.
There is no restriction regarding test anvil selection except that each anvil shall be used at least once for each helmet sample tested. The impact energies for each test impact are as follows:
a. For each impact against the flat anvil, the impact energy shall be 110 J for certification testing and 100 J for all other testing regardless of headform size or weight. Given an ideal frictionless mechanical test facility, this impact energy represents a 2.2+ meter drop of a 5 kg headform and supporting assembly.
b. For each impact against the hemispherical anvil, the impact energy shall be 72 J for certification testing and 65 J for all other testing regardless of headform size or weight. Given an ideal frictionless mechanical test facility, this impact energy represents a 1.3+ meter drop of a 5 kg headform and supporting assembly.
c. For each impact against the kerbstone anvil, the impact energy shall be 72 J for certification testing and 65 J for all other testing regardless of headform size or weight. Given an ideal frictionless mechanical test facility, this impact energy represents a 1.3+ meter drop of a 5 kg headform and supporting assembly.
d. If the impact energy for any test impact exceeds the energy specified by more than 3%, that impact shall be declared invalid.
E4.4 Impact Test Interpretation
The peak acceleration of the headform shall not exceed 300 G's for any valid test impact. Similarly, the helmet's protective structures shall remain intact throughout the testing. If, the Foundation's technical personnel conclude that the headgear has been compromised by breakage, the sample shall be rejected.
If, in certification testing, a sample is found to meet all the test criteria but any two of the impacts were at less than 97% of the impact energy specified, the testing for that sample shall be declared inconclusive and must be repeated. Also, if an invalid impact produces a peak acceleration exceeding 300 G's, the testing for the sample shall be declared inconclusive and must be repeated.
The impact test procedures leave considerable latitude to the helmet tester regarding site and anvil selection. It is expected the tester will orchestrate each test series in order to investigate potential weaknesses and to exercise each likely failure mode.
If at the end of a certification test series, the Foundation's technical personnel conclude that the results obtained in valid impacts are not sufficient to determine whether the helmet model meets the performance requirements of this standard, additional samples may be conditioned and tested. It is expected that all samples submitted will meet all the test requirements.
Each sample will be subjected to no more than four test impacts. Test impact sites shall be on or above the test line. Rivets, vents and any other helmet feature within this region shall be valid test sites. Similarly, no allowance shall be made for the cut of the helmet either between the fore and rear planes or at the rear centerline; no matter how closely the edge of the helmet encroaches on the test line. However, if a test impact is sited closer than 120 mm to any previous test impact site on that sample, that impact shall be declared invalid.
There is no restriction regarding test anvil selection except that each anvil shall be used at least once for each helmet sample tested. The impact energies for each test impact are as follows:
a. For each impact against the flat anvil, the impact energy shall be 110 J for certification testing and 100 J for all other testing regardless of headform size or weight. Given an ideal frictionless mechanical test facility, this impact energy represents a 2.2+ meter drop of a 5 kg headform and supporting assembly.
b. For each impact against the hemispherical anvil, the impact energy shall be 72 J for certification testing and 65 J for all other testing regardless of headform size or weight. Given an ideal frictionless mechanical test facility, this impact energy represents a 1.3+ meter drop of a 5 kg headform and supporting assembly.
c. For each impact against the kerbstone anvil, the impact energy shall be 72 J for certification testing and 65 J for all other testing regardless of headform size or weight. Given an ideal frictionless mechanical test facility, this impact energy represents a 1.3+ meter drop of a 5 kg headform and supporting assembly.
d. If the impact energy for any test impact exceeds the energy specified by more than 3%, that impact shall be declared invalid.
E4.4 Impact Test Interpretation
The peak acceleration of the headform shall not exceed 300 G's for any valid test impact. Similarly, the helmet's protective structures shall remain intact throughout the testing. If, the Foundation's technical personnel conclude that the headgear has been compromised by breakage, the sample shall be rejected.
If, in certification testing, a sample is found to meet all the test criteria but any two of the impacts were at less than 97% of the impact energy specified, the testing for that sample shall be declared inconclusive and must be repeated. Also, if an invalid impact produces a peak acceleration exceeding 300 G's, the testing for the sample shall be declared inconclusive and must be repeated.
The impact test procedures leave considerable latitude to the helmet tester regarding site and anvil selection. It is expected the tester will orchestrate each test series in order to investigate potential weaknesses and to exercise each likely failure mode.
If at the end of a certification test series, the Foundation's technical personnel conclude that the results obtained in valid impacts are not sufficient to determine whether the helmet model meets the performance requirements of this standard, additional samples may be conditioned and tested. It is expected that all samples submitted will meet all the test requirements.
11-17-09, 12:44 AM
#430
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I'm going to weigh in after abstaining from even reading helmet threads for a long while. Gravity does not care what kind of bike you are riding or how fast you are going. Hockey players are concussed just falling their height to the ice, albeit often aided by momentum. This is no different than on a bicycle. I wear a helmet, but I won't ever tell you to. I have always wondered though if anyone in these forums has ever been a non-helmet-wearer, had a significant gravity-aided event, and changed their mind after to employing the use of a helmet?
11-17-09, 01:01 AM
#431
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TMonk, I'm not stuckup. I'm a realist. There is no way you can ever convince me you care one wit about my safety. You are conditioned by social convention to bid me fair tidings. This is crap. You don't even know me and you never will. Two seconds after you hit "send", you flipped over to some other topic and my fate was out of your mind. If it ever held any place in it to begin with. And we both know it did not. I'm more sure you'd rather see me burst into flames for calling out your phony empathy than wish me any real goodwill. This whole helmet issue is about control. Nothing more, nothing less.
...rarely do the undercurrents reveal themselves on the surface.
11-17-09, 01:33 AM
#432
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However, we live in a society where we have decided to not let strangers die in ditches. We fund things like fire departments, water treatment, and healthcare with public funds. If you take unnecessary risks that increase your likelihood of stressing that system - which is there to soften the blow of normal tragedies, not the egregiously stupid self-inflicted ones - then the system has the right to 'incentivize' you to make better choices.
I pay for my own heathcare thank you. I pay taxes so if the fire department has to scrape me off the side of the road...I already paid for it.
And the sentence in bold font?? That is exactly what is wrong in America today...Good-doers trying to tell people how to live their life, what they can and cannot do simply because people like you do not like it and find it as a problem! More people die every day in cars so why not make a mandatory law that ALL vehicle users must wear helmets??? We let people drive 60 to 70 miles an hour in a steel cage go without a helmet but people who average 12 miles an hour ....we want to... make it mandatory to wear one especially if their a kid???? Lets protect the kids!!! But the school bus does not have seat belts??? Where the hell did we go wrong????
I don't see how you can even compare starting a fire with choosing not to wear a helmet!! Or letting your kid make his own safety choices????
Last edited by crazyed27; 11-17-09 at 01:42 AM.
11-17-09, 02:10 AM
#433
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What do you mean wrong? Have you SEEN kids these days? MomIwanthalo3gameboxcleanmymessimgoingtogoruninthestreetmichaelbaymichaelbay!!!! It's not like school is doing them any good. Might as well try to optimize potential killing time by making their transit to and fro as unsafe as possible.
11-17-09, 02:15 AM
#434
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What do you mean wrong? Have you SEEN kids these days? MomIwanthalo3gameboxcleanmymessimgoingtogoruninthestreetmichaelbaymichaelbay!!!! It's not like school is doing them any good. Might as well try to optimize potential killing time by making their transit to and fro as unsafe as possible.
Point taken...but we make them wear helmets!!! It does not make sense!
11-17-09, 02:22 AM
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WAS THE ABOVE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH FOR BIKEFORUMS HELMET THREAD?!?!
11-17-09, 02:35 AM
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Considering the argument that helmets do nothing to protect their wearer from falls exceeding 12 miles per hour, are brightly colored, and pushed upon the population as an obvious conspiracy of eugenics, I would have to concur that they simply exist to make aiming weapons at all the right places (A head shot is 30 points, from my porch at least) a more accessible experience
WAS THE ABOVE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH FOR BIKEFORUMS HELMET THREAD?!?!
WAS THE ABOVE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH FOR BIKEFORUMS HELMET THREAD?!?!
Wher the hell did I put my paint ball gun??? Sound like fun!
11-17-09, 03:13 AM
#437
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Word.
Arguing about helmets is like arguing about underwear. People who don't wear them say it increases their manhood. People who do say its much needed support.
Arguing about helmets is like arguing about underwear. People who don't wear them say it increases their manhood. People who do say its much needed support.
11-17-09, 01:29 PM
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11-17-09, 09:07 PM
#439
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So..... Wearing a helmet = Good, but not a necessity. Mandatory helmet laws = bad. I don't think anyone can come up with a good reason that wearing a helmet puts you at more risk that doesn't also apply to any other article of clothing. But at that same time, who really believes it is their right to tell me what to do with my life?
11-17-09, 09:13 PM
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the government. Same as they tell you where you can and can't park your car or how fast you can drive it.
11-17-09, 09:23 PM
#441
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Car's vs. Bike....More people die in car crashes in one week in America than people riding bicycles die in one year....So where is the revelance in your statement?
You can drive 100 miles an hour in a car...the average biker can do what 20 to 30 miles an hour???
11-17-09, 09:29 PM
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I'm going to weigh in after abstaining from even reading helmet threads for a long while. Gravity does not care what kind of bike you are riding or how fast you are going. Hockey players are concussed just falling their height to the ice, albeit often aided by momentum. This is no different than on a bicycle. I wear a helmet, but I won't ever tell you to. I have always wondered though if anyone in these forums has ever been a non-helmet-wearer, had a significant gravity-aided event, and changed their mind after to employing the use of a helmet?
11-17-09, 09:35 PM
#443
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what are you tlaking about man?
read the post from jediphobic above mine nice and slowly. But if you have to, skim to his last sentence.
11-17-09, 09:38 PM
#444
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Typing I am teabag...(by fault bigtea)
I rode a skateboard pro like for over 10 years...handrails...fast speeds...big gaps and all...never wore any protective gear except gloves...Now that I ride a bike...I am confident in my ability to know how to take a spill and a hard one at that, while protecting my vitals. It is a learned process too complicated for the average person to understand...it is a skill that is learned throughout the hard bounces off of the pavement. You have to roll it out...tuck, duck and roll...You have to know how to fall.
11-17-09, 09:45 PM
#445
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11-17-09, 09:48 PM
#446
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When my son was a teenager, I asked him to be careful or he'll have an accident. He replied with, "But Dad, I won't have an accident." We never plan on falling down or being hit. I would assert that professionals, be it in skateboarding in a controlled environment, or commuting a route you are absolutely familiar with, that accidents will happen. You can be prepared for it, but by nature of its definition, is an accident, and the end result is often unpredictable. Crazyeyed, I give you props for your comment. Preparation is half of avoiding accidents, and even coping with them when they do happen.
My one and only helmet story happened a few months back. The rabbit came out of nowhere and purposely caused my endo as part of a vast bunny-wing conspiracy (really, Mulder?). Hairline fracture in my left elbow and a head-whack on the pavement, DESPITE my brilliant tuck and roll. It is still a mystery to me how I unclipped in time. I assert that had I been sans helmet, I would have been bleeding and worse off. By the same token, I ride looking for outs in the event of something unexpected. This proved to me that I cannot plan for every contingency.
Wear a helmet or not, but plan for the worst, always be aware, and be the ball.
My one and only helmet story happened a few months back. The rabbit came out of nowhere and purposely caused my endo as part of a vast bunny-wing conspiracy (really, Mulder?). Hairline fracture in my left elbow and a head-whack on the pavement, DESPITE my brilliant tuck and roll. It is still a mystery to me how I unclipped in time. I assert that had I been sans helmet, I would have been bleeding and worse off. By the same token, I ride looking for outs in the event of something unexpected. This proved to me that I cannot plan for every contingency.
Wear a helmet or not, but plan for the worst, always be aware, and be the ball.
11-17-09, 10:13 PM
#447
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When my son was a teenager, I asked him to be careful or he'll have an accident. He replied with, "But Dad, I won't have an accident." We never plan on falling down or being hit. I would assert that professionals, be it in skateboarding in a controlled environment, or commuting a route you are absolutely familiar with, that accidents will happen. You can be prepared for it, but by nature of its definition, is an accident, and the end result is often unpredictable. Crazyeyed, I give you props for your comment. Preparation is half of avoiding accidents, and even coping with them when they do happen.
My one and only helmet story happened a few months back. The rabbit came out of nowhere and purposely caused my endo as part of a vast bunny-wing conspiracy (really, Mulder?). Hairline fracture in my left elbow and a head-whack on the pavement, DESPITE my brilliant tuck and roll. It is still a mystery to me how I unclipped in time. I assert that had I been sans helmet, I would have been bleeding and worse off. By the same token, I ride looking for outs in the event of something unexpected. This proved to me that I cannot plan for every contingency.
Wear a helmet or not, but plan for the worst, always be aware, and be the ball.
My one and only helmet story happened a few months back. The rabbit came out of nowhere and purposely caused my endo as part of a vast bunny-wing conspiracy (really, Mulder?). Hairline fracture in my left elbow and a head-whack on the pavement, DESPITE my brilliant tuck and roll. It is still a mystery to me how I unclipped in time. I assert that had I been sans helmet, I would have been bleeding and worse off. By the same token, I ride looking for outs in the event of something unexpected. This proved to me that I cannot plan for every contingency.
Wear a helmet or not, but plan for the worst, always be aware, and be the ball.
A rabbit of all creature got you...who would have thought??? That sucks!
I was a street skater..meaning we did everything on the terrain that was made by man in the metro area. Dangerous as hell now that I look back at it but I had a great time!
You last sentence is what I live by...look front, back, and side to side and be aware of any thing dangerous or could possibly be dangerous and be defensive at the same time....no spills yet since getting back into biking except after drinking too much and only putting my bag on one shoulder instead of two! The bag fell off my shoulder going about 10 miles an hour and drug me down with it. I was sore the next day in my knee..but was fine the next day after! Lesson don't drink and bike!
11-17-09, 10:38 PM
#449
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11-17-09, 10:52 PM
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Freshman year of college, tweaked my handlebar setup on my commuter (which changed the mass distribution), rolling down a short hill to a stop light, got on the brakes too hard and went over the bars pretty hard. Landed on my right shoulder, head, and right thigh. I was only going like 17 mph or so but I was banged up pretty good.
The only time I won't wear a helmet now is if it's a very short ride to class and my helmet is gross from a real ride earlier in the day. And when I do that, I'm definitely a lot more cautious.
One final note: even if the helmet does nothing about the impact energy, it's at least going to dramatically reduce the amount of skin I lose on my head and face. And that right there is reason enough to wear one.