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Tempo

Old 10-15-09, 02:55 PM
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blamire
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Tempo

a quick question on training

just did a tempo workout
10 min warmup
10 min high gear high resitance low (80ish) cadence
20 min spin at 70-75%ish HR incl one legged drills
10 min high gear high resistance low cadence
cool down

is it right that my legs dont feel done in such as they would after a sprint workout?
or am i doing something wrong?
thanks, Paul
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Old 10-15-09, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by blamire View Post
a quick question on training

just did a tempo workout 170.5
10 min warmup
10 min high gear high resitance low (80ish) cadence
20 min spin at 70-75%ish HR incl one legged drills
10 min high gear high resistance low cadence
cool down

is it right that my legs dont feel done in such as they would after a sprint workout?
or am i doing something wrong?
thanks, Paul
1) What does 70-75% refer to? Max HR or LTHR? If your zones are set up around Max HR then that's garbage and you need to test yourself to obtain your LTHR.

2) A tempo ride only refers to keeping your heart rate within a % of your of LTHR. When I do tempo rides, I usually ride at ~90% of my LTHR. This leads me to think you base zones off of max HR. Refer to #1

3) Diagnosing the "feel" of your legs after X or Y workout is a difficult. It involves considering your chronic training load, and your personal strengths and limiters, among other things. Also you should be able to ride in your tempo zone much longer than that; my tempo rides are typically between 60-120 min. depending on my goal for that ride.

Last edited by TMonk; 10-15-09 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 10-15-09, 03:26 PM
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ok so i'm doing all wrong. thanks, better to find out now rather than further along the line.
i'll test for my LTHR tomorrow night and revise my workouts/plan.
i probably would be able to ride at LT much longer than that, but im still at college (UK college, not university) and just have a stupidly high workload, meaning i cant really do more than 1 hr sessions per night.
thanks again
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Old 10-15-09, 04:01 PM
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What Thelonious Monk said.

For this insomaniac 40 something, it means without any alcoholic or herbal aid, tempo riding means I get to sleep soundly at 10 instead of 1 AM if not earlier. No body or knee or leg pain.
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Old 10-15-09, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by blamire View Post
i'll test for my LTHR tomorrow night and revise my workouts/plan.
Test yourself rested. Since you won't be your LTHR result may be lower than it should and lessen the effectiveness of your future training.
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Old 10-15-09, 07:17 PM
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[quote=blamire;9864836]ok so i'm doing all wrong. thanks, better to find out now rather than further along the line.
i'll test for my LTHR tomorrow night and revise my workouts/plan.
i probably would be able to ride at LT much longer than that, but im still at college (UK college, not university) and just have a stupidly high workload, meaning i cant really do more than 1 hr sessions per night.
thanks again[/QUOTE]

False.

In addition to having more complex physiological meaning, your LTHR has time in the definition; it is defined by the max level of exertion that an athelete can put out in 1 hr.

Heed to clausen's advice before you test rested. You can also approximate your LTHR (according to the Friel method) by doing an all-out 30 min test and recording your HR for the last 20 min. of the test. Avg# = good enough approximation of your LTHR to put into practice.

Make sure when you test that you are rested, have had no caffeine, and that you are in as much hurt as you can tolerate for the 30 min. Good luck
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Old 10-16-09, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
In addition to having more complex physiological meaning, your LTHR has time in the definition; it is defined by the max level of exertion that an athelete can put out in 1 hr.
No, time has nothing to do with it; it's not like threshold power. LT HR is simply the HR at which blood lactate increases faster than it can be cleared. The accumulation if which will limit the amount of time you can operate at that intensity.
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Old 10-16-09, 07:11 AM
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No, it's not surprising. This type of workout is much different from a sprint workout.

Separately, I'm starting my 5th year coaching and I am flabbergasted that people do one legged drills for strength. A huge number of people that do that end up with overuse injuries, pulls and strains. It's a skills drill, not a fitness drill.
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Old 10-16-09, 08:07 AM
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i wasn't using one as a strength drill. i feel smooth when riding and others have said i look like i have a very smooth pedal stroke, but when i unclip on one side its crazy how much i don't pull back and push forward at the top and bottoms of the stroke respectively legged's
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Old 10-16-09, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by umd View Post
No, time has nothing to do with it; it's not like threshold power. LT HR is simply the HR at which blood lactate increases faster than it can be cleared. The accumulation if which will limit the amount of time you can operate at that intensity.
I thought that your LTHR was a reasonable approximation (or as best as you can get w/o power) of your FTP.

Also if your blood lactate increases faster than it can be cleared at this HR, then isn't it above the "T" in LTHR?


EDIT: I've tested my LTHR (as we have discussed) to be 187 bpm using the 30-min Frield method. The closest I have come to this is 40-min of climbing @ 186 bpm on a hot sunny afternoon at OSM/painted cave.
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Old 10-16-09, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by blamire View Post
i wasn't using one as a strength drill. i feel smooth when riding and others have said i look like i have a very smooth pedal stroke, but when i unclip on one side its crazy how much i don't pull back and push forward at the top and bottoms of the stroke respectively legged's
That is an excellendt observation and it's good that you have done one-legged pedal drills to demonstrate this to your self.

Now just don't trick yourself into thinking of it as a "tempo" ride.
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Old 10-16-09, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
I thought that your LTHR was a reasonable approximation (or as best as you can get w/o power) of your FTP.

Also if your blood lactate increases faster than it can be cleared at this HR, then isn't it above the "T" in LTHR?
Well it's a threshold, cross the threshold and the lactate accumulates, don't cross it and it stays in equalibrium.

As for being an approximation of FTP, I mean, that doesn't really mean anything without power. If you want to use it for pacing then it gets you in the ballpark because if your blood lactate is not increasing or increasing slowly, then you should be able to hold the effort for a long time.
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Old 10-16-09, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by umd View Post
Well it's a threshold, cross the threshold and the lactate accumulates, don't cross it and it stays in equalibrium.

As for being an approximation of FTP, I mean, that doesn't really mean anything without power. If you want to use it for pacing then it gets you in the ballpark because if your blood lactate is not increasing or increasing slowly, then you should be able to hold the effort for a long time.
True true. It is also important to consider the fact the FTP and LTHR are both approximations themselves of another physiological term - the lactate threshold. In order to measure this you need to prick your finger periodically throughout an effort and analyse the blood to determine lactate.

Although I of course I will admit that power data is more powerful and objective than HR data for many reasons, as had been beaten to death on this forum many times.
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Old 10-16-09, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post

Now just don't trick yourself into thinking of it as a "tempo" ride.

the tempo intervals were done at the start and end, with 20 mins spin inbetween, during which i did 2x 1 min single leg drill.
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Old 10-16-09, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
True true. It is also important to consider the fact the FTP and LTHR are both approximations themselves of another physiological term - the lactate threshold. In order to measure this you need to prick your finger periodically throughout an effort and analyse the blood to determine lactate.

Although I of course I will admit that power data is more powerful and objective than HR data for many reasons, as had been beaten to death on this forum many times.
I think we have a confusion of concepts here. LTHR is the crossover point at which lactate accumulates faster than it can be cleared and FTP is the maximum average power for an hour. These are not approximations and they are not the same thing. However, field tests for both give results that are approximations. You need to do a blood lactate test to get your true LTHR and you need to flog yourslef for an hour (or very close) at maximum effort to get your true FTP.

I did a gas exchange test to get my anaerobic threshold (AT) HR, which is supposed to be very close to LT.
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Old 10-16-09, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by blamire View Post
is it right that my legs dont feel done in such as they would after a sprint workout?
or am i doing something wrong?
Tempo is an aerobic workout, your legs shouldn't feel worn out. The idea behind periodization of workouts with micro and macrocycles is to allow you to optimally workout the different parts of body, the muscular, aerobic and energy-delivery systems. You tax one while the other is recoverying. Similarly to alternating between upper & lower-body workouts in a gym. So one day of the week , you really work the muscles with sprints and intervals. Then you let that rest while do you do aerobic workouts like tempo. Then you let both of those rest and work on energy-delivery with endurance rides.

Helps if you visualize the relative-intensity of the workouts on these three sytems with graphs. You'll find that whenever one is high, the others are low. The sum of all three will be more constant.
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Old 10-16-09, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by umd View Post
I think we have a confusion of concepts here. LTHR is the crossover point at which lactate accumulates faster than it can be cleared and FTP is the maximum average power for an hour. These are not approximations and they are not the same thing. However, field tests for both give results that are approximations. You need to do a blood lactate test to get your true LTHR and you need to flog yourslef for an hour (or very close) at maximum effort to get your true FTP.

I did a gas exchange test to get my anaerobic threshold (AT) HR, which is supposed to be very close to LT.
I was just stating that the lactate threshold itself is a physiological term dealing with blood clearing of lactate.

I understand that LTHR is the crossover point at for lactate accumulation. What I used to think was that FTP was analagous to LTHR in the sence that it was the maximum power you can put out to retain the physiological equilibrium at lactate threshold. I guess I was wrong.

Also this makes me think that the LTHR is more intimately related to the blood clearing of lactate at threshold then FTP, given that blood clearing of lactate is directly related to HR.

FTP is a more practical term for training and interpretation of fitness of course
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Old 10-16-09, 01:01 PM
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Yes

simply put, LTHR is the HR at which LT occurs.

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