Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Arrogant Dr.'s Trial Finally Begins

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Arrogant Dr.'s Trial Finally Begins

Old 10-28-09, 12:47 PM
  #101  
raptor3x
Senior Member
 
raptor3x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 176
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
one-half gravity based on what? The weight of the brakes? The weight of a pro tour rider? A clyde?
That would be an acceleration of 4.9 m/s^2; no dependence on mass.
raptor3x is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 12:53 PM
  #102  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by raptor3x View Post
That would be an acceleration of 4.9 m/s^2; no dependence on mass.
But wouldn't achieving that rate depend on the brake's force vs. the mass it is acting on?
__________________
"Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 12:55 PM
  #103  
datlas 
Beyond Bogus
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 28,267

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 385 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8505 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Not disagreeing per se, but... "noble"? I don't hate on docs, but noble? Kind of a stretch there... when I think of noble I think of sacrifice, and I'm just not seeing that in the doc world. Long hours, sure, but it does pay. If you volunteer as a doc that's noble, to get paid $300k+/yr for what you do is "repspected", sure, but noble?
Interesting thread/observations.

I just want to clarify...most physicians that I know, myself included, don't make anywhere near "$300k+/yr." I wish I made close to that. Some do (generally certain specialists), but most don't.

Anyway the dude should be punished, regardless of his "credentials."

Doug
datlas is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 12:57 PM
  #104  
TysonCook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
agreed, $300,000 is NOT the norm...maybe in NYC or LA, but not the rest of the country.
TysonCook is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 01:03 PM
  #105  
DiabloScott
It's MY mountain
 
DiabloScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 8,614

Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2195 Post(s)
Liked 30 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
But wouldn't achieving that rate depend on the brake's force vs. the mass it is acting on?

Yup, same bike with a really fat guy on it won't be able to achieve the same deceleration... same thing for someone with less skill.


Originally Posted by Rich in Peoria
Chili fries and burgers for everyone [/thread]
But nobody's mentioned Hitler yet.
DiabloScott is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 01:03 PM
  #106  
PSR215
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Its hard to follow trials from cryptic news accounts but to me the "expert '" seems to be helping the State as much as the defense.
PSR215 is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 01:33 PM
  #107  
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
But wouldn't achieving that rate depend on the brake's force vs. the mass it is acting on?
Yes and no. Ultimate stopping power is going to be a function of the coeff. of friction of the tire on the road if you assume the brake has the ability to lock the tire, which may or may not be the case. Usability of those brakes is a different matter, as any who has gone from V-brakes to discs on their mountain bike will let you know. Tires do have a weight sensitive component to them for braking, but for these purposes, you can probably neglect that.

As with anything, there is a lag time for your brain to process that you have to stop. Certainly, no cyclist would expect a driver to pull in front of them and brake check them. At 44 ft/sec (30 mph), it doesn't take long to eat up any extra real-estate between you and a jack-ass. The fact that the cyclists were going down hill would also increase the braking distance.

I wish I would have had a chance to cross-examine. The prosecution did say one thing right. "Would the collision have happened without the Dr. stopping?"...."No"
Fat Boy is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 01:38 PM
  #108  
DScott
It's ALL base...
 
DScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
Anyone know what the speed limit is on this section of road? I don't remember seeing that in any of the articles.

I looked through Google street view and can't believe it's more than 30mph anywhere in there... too curvy and residential - driveways come right off the road, but I don't know exactly where it happened... long road.

So if the riders were going 30mph as in the article, then they really weren't slowing down the driver much, so his rage is really incomprehensible.
Speed limit throughout the canyon is 30mph.
DScott is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 02:03 PM
  #109  
save10
Arrogant Roadie Punk
 
save10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by TysonCook View Post
agreed, $300,000 is NOT the norm...maybe in NYC or LA, but not the rest of the country.

also not in LA. and as i have found out...not in San Jose, CA either.
save10 is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 02:12 PM
  #110  
save10
Arrogant Roadie Punk
 
save10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,353
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RichinPeoria View Post
Chili fries and burgers for everyone [/thread]

FYI this is Burgermeister. San Francisco based - a few other locations in the Bay Area. It really is an excellent burger. better than The Counter or Barneys. not as good as personal fave - Paul's on 4th ave in manhattan.

http://www.burgermeistersf.com/
save10 is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 02:42 PM
  #111  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
Yes and no. Ultimate stopping power is going to be a function of the coeff. of friction of the tire on the road if you assume the brake has the ability to lock the tire, which may or may not be the case. Usability of those brakes is a different matter, as any who has gone from V-brakes to discs on their mountain bike will let you know. Tires do have a weight sensitive component to them for braking, but for these purposes, you can probably neglect that.

As with anything, there is a lag time for your brain to process that you have to stop. Certainly, no cyclist would expect a driver to pull in front of them and brake check them. At 44 ft/sec (30 mph), it doesn't take long to eat up any extra real-estate between you and a jack-ass. The fact that the cyclists were going down hill would also increase the braking distance.
I'm still confused. How would they measure how many G's the brakes are capable of without accounting for the amount of weight it will be stopping? Without it, I can only see them testing the brakes for actual force.

Either way, the argument in court is worthless. As you pointed out, reaction time would play a role even if the brakes could stop at the same rate regardless of rider weight.
__________________
"Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 02:47 PM
  #112  
ok_commuter
bulletproof tiger
 
ok_commuter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,934

Bikes: Waterford 2200, Litespeed Tuscany, Salsa La Cruz, Kona Fire Mountain

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DScott View Post
Speed limit throughout the canyon is 30mph.
This is the part that blows my mind the most - data from the cyclists' computers shows they were going 28 and 29 miles an hour when he passed them. Not only were they not slowing him down, but he broke the speed limit in order to pass them and try to kill them.
ok_commuter is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 02:48 PM
  #113  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ok_commuter View Post
This is the part that blows my mind the most - data from the cyclists' computers shows they were going 28 and 29 miles an hour when he passed them. Not only were they not slowing him down, but he broke the speed limit in order to pass them and try to kill them.
And yet that will probably be forgotten by the closing arguments.
__________________
"Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 03:03 PM
  #114  
DiabloScott
It's MY mountain
 
DiabloScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 8,614

Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2195 Post(s)
Liked 30 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
I'm still confused. How would they measure how many G's the brakes are capable of without accounting for the amount of weight it will be stopping? Without it, I can only see them testing the brakes for actual force.
You're right. Deceleration is just a measure of how quickly your speed is changing. Different masses with the same FORCE decelerate at different rates. Different masses with the same acceleration have different forces. I think all FatBoy is saying is that it's not just the brakes that are involved, but the other factors are pretty minor.

If there really is a federal requirement for 0.5G braking, then it must also specify the mass that's being decelerated or else it is meaningless.

And 30 to zero in two seconds sounds like fantasy to me... especially downhill.
DiabloScott is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 03:42 PM
  #115  
lpolliard
'09 Synapse Carbon 3
 
lpolliard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 727

Bikes: '09 Synapse Carbon 3, R5000, R2000

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by barese rider View Post
i doubt any here think that you using the user name dr. Pete is in anyway "pretentious" i certainly never have thought so.
-1
lpolliard is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 03:45 PM
  #116  
lpolliard
'09 Synapse Carbon 3
 
lpolliard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 727

Bikes: '09 Synapse Carbon 3, R5000, R2000

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by drpete View Post
i've been told several times that my choice of username means i'm pretentious/conceited/elitist/etc.
+1
lpolliard is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 03:47 PM
  #117  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
If there really is a federal requirement for 0.5G braking, then it must also specify the mass that's being decelerated or else it is meaningless.
That's what I figured.


Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
And 30 to zero in two seconds sounds like fantasy to me... especially downhill.
Same here... or maybe I should be buying some brakes of a Specialized Tarmac.
__________________
"Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 03:49 PM
  #118  
DrPete 
Dirt-riding heretic
 
DrPete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 17,413

Bikes: Lynskey R230/Red, Blue Triad SL/Red, Cannondale Scalpel 3/X9

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by lpolliard View Post
+1
Well that settles it.
__________________
"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
DrPete is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 04:03 PM
  #119  
Mr Danw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: by the football hall of fame
Posts: 850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The mass is the variable in the equation.

I will oversimplify how to measure braking in Gs. Hang a weight (of any weight) from the top tube of a bike. Tie a force gauge between the weight and the seat tube. Now just for argument's sake that weight is ten pound. Upon braking the force gauge will measure, not the weight of the weight, but the forward force of the weight.

If the forward force of this theoretical ten pound weight, under braking conditions, is 5 # then the braking force is .5Gs. If the forward force upon braking were half that of a 100# weight it would still be .5Gs
Mr Danw is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 04:18 PM
  #120  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr Danw View Post
The mass is the variable in the equation.

I will oversimplify how to measure braking in Gs. Hang a weight (of any weight) from the top tube of a bike. Tie a force gauge between the weight and the seat tube. Now just for argument's sake that weight is ten pound. Upon braking the force gauge will measure, not the weight of the weight, but the forward force of the weight.

If the forward force of this theoretical ten pound weight, under braking conditions, is 5 # then the braking force is .5Gs. If the forward force upon braking were half that of a 100# weight it would still be .5Gs
OK that makes a little more sense, but that doesn't address how quickly the bike would stop, as the defense is trying to claim. I think the report is missing some data on this "federal requirement"
__________________
"Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 04:22 PM
  #121  
mgbguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Flatland NC
Posts: 253

Bikes: Cervelo P2C, 1982 Univega, Moto Messenger

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by lpolliard View Post
+1
Usually only bothers those with inadequacies in certain areas.
mgbguy is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 04:23 PM
  #122  
Mr Danw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: by the football hall of fame
Posts: 850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Either way the article I read stated that the bike or bikes measures a braking force of .65 Gs which is better than gov't requirements. The defense was grasping at straws and missed.
Mr Danw is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 04:36 PM
  #123  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr Danw View Post
The defense was grasping at straws ...
That sums up the entire defense if you ask me.
__________________
"Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 04:40 PM
  #124  
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
OK that makes a little more sense, but that doesn't address how quickly the bike would stop, as the defense is trying to claim.
It does if you go back and plug that into Newton's laws of motion.

Stopping at 0.65g gives you a braking distance of 46.2 feet.
Stopping at 0.50g gives you a braking distance of 60.1 feet.

Either way, without attempted murder, the bikes go down the hill.
Fat Boy is offline  
Old 10-28-09, 04:53 PM
  #125  
Cassave
Senior Member
 
Cassave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodland Hills, Calif.
Posts: 1,655
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
one-half gravity based on what? The weight of the brakes? The weight of a pro tour rider? A clyde?
The CPSC test is conducted with a rider weighing at least 150 lb.
-0.5 G = decel rate of -16 ft/sec.
Cassave is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.