Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Arrogant Dr.'s Trial Finally Begins

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Arrogant Dr.'s Trial Finally Begins

Old 10-30-09, 09:44 AM
  #201  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,336

Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
Wouldn't that be grounds for a mistrial? It would seem like a murder trial with a jury full of serial killers.
Nope. It's called jury nullification, and the jury has the power to decide to completely ignore the law and aquit if they choose to.

You can't argue that to them, or tell them that they can do that, but they have the power to do so, and the State has no appeal if they do. (because of double jeopardy)
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 09:48 AM
  #202  
elader
Senile member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Boyds, MD
Posts: 179

Bikes: Felt F2C

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
Yes and no. Ultimate stopping power is going to be a function of the coeff. of friction of the tire on the road if you assume the brake has the ability to lock the tire, which may or may not be the case. Usability of those brakes is a different matter, as any who has gone from V-brakes to discs on their mountain bike will let you know. Tires do have a weight sensitive component to them for braking, but for these purposes, you can probably neglect that.

As with anything, there is a lag time for your brain to process that you have to stop. Certainly, no cyclist would expect a driver to pull in front of them and brake check them. At 44 ft/sec (30 mph), it doesn't take long to eat up any extra real-estate between you and a jack-ass. The fact that the cyclists were going down hill would also increase the braking distance.

I wish I would have had a chance to cross-examine. The prosecution did say one thing right. "Would the collision have happened without the Dr. stopping?"...."No"
Can you imagine the same conversation about two cars? "So, what you are saying is that if Mrs. Jones had slammed on her brakes instantly when Dr. Bill had jammed on his, theoretically she had enough time to avoid hitting him and getting herself killed? So in effect, it was her repressed unconscious desire for death that did her in!" "Why Mrs Jones should be put on trial her and pay for damages to the car she hit."
elader is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 09:49 AM
  #203  
zac
Senior Member
 
zac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 874

Bikes: I just ride them, they own me.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
Wouldn't that be grounds for a mistrial? It would seem like a murder trial with a jury full of serial killers.
No, that is what peremptory challenges are for.

You will hear the (horror) stories, but for the most part juries follow the law as they are instructed or try to understand it, but every so often you are left shaking your head wondering who the rebel was.

Although I must admit that it seems of late (for the last couple of years) that juries are getting a bit out of hand. In this day and age of google, I am pretty convinced that some of them fail to heed the judge's instructions about no outside deliberations or information gathering.
__________________
trans female, out and proud!

Hammer Nutrition 15% Referral Discount
MassBike.org - Same Road, Same Rules
zac is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 09:55 AM
  #204  
RoboCheme
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Moraga, CA
Posts: 1,701

Bikes: 2008 Cervelo RS, 2011 Scott CR1 Elite, 2014 Volagi Liscio

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo View Post
SoCal gets what it deserves. I've been selected for 5 jury's 2 went to deliberation. Unfortunately, for the most part, the jury pool in SoCal is made up of retirees, government employees and the unemployed. Very few employers pay for jury duty so you end up with people who don't want to be there. In the two trials that went to deliberation you'd have been horrified by the discussions taking place.

This is why I'm pretty pessimistic about this guy getting convicted. Too much projection and not enough objective thought will go into how this jury will decide.
The one time that I actually got seated on a jury, it was a pretty good experience. About three quarters were working folks, as I recall. Everyone was pretty serious and there were some good, objective discussions of the evidence and the law and we came to a verdict. I was amazed that twelve people could agree on anything. This was in NorCal.

So, there is hope.
RoboCheme is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 09:58 AM
  #205  
Biker395 
Seat Sniffer
 
Biker395's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4,629

Bikes: 2008 Scott CR1 Pro; 2006 Schwinn Fastback Pro and 1996 Colnago Decor Super C96; 2003 Univega Alpina 700; 2000 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 455 Post(s)
Liked 40 Times in 23 Posts
My jury experience has been positive too ... and I've been on at least 3. All civil trials.
__________________
Proud parent of a happy inner child ...
www.photo395.com
Biker395 is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 10:10 AM
  #206  
El Diablo Rojo
Banned.
 
El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ATX, Ex So Cal
Posts: 11,058

Bikes: Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RoboCheme View Post
The one time that I actually got seated on a jury, it was a pretty good experience. About three quarters were working folks, as I recall. Everyone was pretty serious and there were some good, objective discussions of the evidence and the law and we came to a verdict. I was amazed that twelve people could agree on anything. This was in NorCal.

So, there is hope.
Having lived in SLO for several years I would say this is the difference. Much different attitude once you get north of Santa Barbara.
El Diablo Rojo is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 10:11 AM
  #207  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Nope. It's called jury nullification, and the jury has the power to decide to completely ignore the law and aquit if they choose to.

You can't argue that to them, or tell them that they can do that, but they have the power to do so, and the State has no appeal if they do. (because of double jeopardy)
There's no need to ask for a mistrial if it's just a matter of a couple of vigilant holdouts. You can retry a case that has a hung jury, and if you think it was a tainted jury, it might be worthwhile doing so.


Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
My jury experience has been positive too ... and I've been on at least 3. All civil trials.
Civil is much easier since you don't need a unanimous opinion. On the civil trial I served on, there was still one clueless person, but we steamrolled that and had a decision in less than an hour. The criminal trial I was in deliberated for days just for one person. I was hoping she'd just give in because she was a freelancer and lost work every day she held out. No dice.
__________________
"Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 12:47 PM
  #208  
PSR215
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Dr. Pete, Back then as a court house regular you would get reports of what happened in the jury room from people that knew but were not supposed to know as jury deliberations are supposed to be sacroscant. So you would just let it go. I guess if someone wanted to push the point the jurors could be held in contempt for lying to the judge during jury selection that they would enforce the law. As said by others these things are rare but do happen. One thing I learned as a young prosecutor was never to take a serious case to trial within a few weeks before Christmas as all sorts of wierd things happened then due to Christmas Cheer.
PSR215 is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 01:46 PM
  #209  
gettingold
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 1,021

Bikes: 2018 Lynskey R 260 Disc; 2008 Trek 4.7 Madone; 2017 Framed Minnesota 3.0 Fat Bike; 1984 Nishiki International

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
Yeah, it sure is a relief to know that there are no arrogant pricks in the general population... You know, people who would generalize about the personality of an entire group based on one person's actions and stuff like that.
Relax doc; I'm sure you never made a lawyer joke....
gettingold is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 02:05 PM
  #210  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gettingold View Post
Relax doc; I'm sure you never made a lawyer joke....
At the risk of pissing off the attorneys on this forum, anybody know the difference between a lawyer and a bucket of slime?
__________________
"Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 02:14 PM
  #211  
DiabloScott
It's MY mountain
 
DiabloScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 8,614

Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2195 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 18 Posts
Stone said that, in the earlier incident, Thompson had three options when he caught up to cyclists Patrick Watson and Josh Crosby as they descended Mandeville Canyon Road. He could have driven behind the two cyclists at 30 mph (the speed limit and the cyclists' speed according to GPS data) or he could have passed them and kept driving. Instead, he passed them and then stopped, later saying that he wanted to take a picture, a claim Stone called “patently ridiculous.”

http://www.velonews.com/article/9968...uments-wrap-up
Some interesting melodrama in closing arguments. Deliberation begins Monday.
DiabloScott is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 02:17 PM
  #212  
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by elader View Post
Can you imagine the same conversation about two cars? "So, what you are saying is that if Mrs. Jones had slammed on her brakes instantly when Dr. Bill had jammed on his, theoretically she had enough time to avoid hitting him and getting herself killed? So in effect, it was her repressed unconscious desire for death that did her in!" "Why Mrs Jones should be put on trial her and pay for damages to the car she hit."
Ya, I know. It's just disgusting, really. It doesn't look like the prosecution really even did much of a cross-examine. It seems like the more time you spend with a jack-ass like that 'expert' on the stand, the more credibility you give them. It's better to show in 1 or 2 sentences that they're idiots and then get them out of there.
Fat Boy is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 02:25 PM
  #213  
Raiden
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Central CA
Posts: 1,408

Bikes: A little of everything

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Haha, melodrama is right. The doctor's coat 'shroud' thing was a little silly. Sounds like something out of a Law & Order episode.
Raiden is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 02:44 PM
  #214  
powpow
Senior Member
 
powpow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bay Area CA
Posts: 1,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Raiden View Post
Haha, melodrama is right. The doctor's coat 'shroud' thing was a little silly. Sounds like something out of a Law & Order episode.
Agreed. I think she's been watching too much TV. Then again, the jury probably has as well so maybe it will work.
powpow is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 02:53 PM
  #215  
fast
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
How match may it's already cost to dr. Thompson? How match lawers charge on such types of cases? I'd read, he sold his house after his crime...
 
Old 10-30-09, 02:55 PM
  #216  
OCRider2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Southern Ca
Posts: 424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
http://www.velonews.com/article/9968...uments-wrap-up

I don't know about the prosecutor's Trader Joe's story. Her analogy suggests that the riders were in fact preventing the driver from proceeding at the posted speed limit which the facts show not to be the case.

I think she really dropped the ball here by reinforcing the perception of a lot of drivers that bicyclists impead their movement.
OCRider2000 is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 03:02 PM
  #217  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,336

Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
There's no need to ask for a mistrial if it's just a matter of a couple of vigilant holdouts. You can retry a case that has a hung jury, and if you think it was a tainted jury, it might be worthwhile doing so.


But you can't retry them if they acquit, even if the verdict is against the weight of thevidnece and contrary to the law.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 03:06 PM
  #218  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
But you can't retry them if they acquit, even if the verdict is against the weight of thevidnece and contrary to the law.
True, but that would mean all 12 agreed on the absurd.
__________________
"Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)
urbanknight is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 03:52 PM
  #219  
zac
Senior Member
 
zac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 874

Bikes: I just ride them, they own me.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
Stone said that, in the earlier incident, Thompson had three options when he caught up to cyclists Patrick Watson and Josh Crosby as they descended Mandeville Canyon Road. He could have driven behind the two cyclists at 30 mph (the speed limit and the cyclists' speed according to GPS data) or he could have passed them and kept driving. Instead, he passed them and then stopped, later saying that he wanted to take a picture, a claim Stone called “patently ridiculous.”

http://www.velonews.com/article/9968...uments-wrap-up
Some interesting melodrama in closing arguments. Deliberation begins Monday.
While it's difficult to catch the tenor of the closing from a summary, I am underwhelmed by it. Too bad. But who knows maybe it struck a chord with the jury. Maybe the jury pool finds itself stuck in line at some Trader Joes every morning near the Court House.

zac
__________________
trans female, out and proud!

Hammer Nutrition 15% Referral Discount
MassBike.org - Same Road, Same Rules
zac is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 04:00 PM
  #220  
DiabloScott
It's MY mountain
 
DiabloScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 8,614

Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2195 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 18 Posts
Originally Posted by fast View Post
How match may it's already cost to dr. Thompson? How match lawers charge on such types of cases? I'd read, he sold his house after his crime...
Two week trial - probably $10k or so. Plus if he's convicted he can spend that again on an appeal. Not enough to break him though, probably not the reason he sold his house (if that's true).

Originally Posted by OCRider2000 View Post

I don't know about the prosecutor's Trader Joe's story. Her analogy suggests that the riders were in fact preventing the driver from proceeding at the posted speed limit which the facts show not to be the case.

I think she really dropped the ball here by reinforcing the perception of a lot of drivers that bicyclists impead their movement.
It was a little kitschy, but I don't think it will backfire.

Think his own insurance paid to have his rear window replaced?

Last edited by DiabloScott; 10-30-09 at 04:06 PM.
DiabloScott is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 04:18 PM
  #221  
Terex
Senior Member
 
Terex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 7600' Northern New Mexico
Posts: 3,614

Bikes: Specialized 6Fattie, Parlee Z5, Scott Addict

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by gettingold View Post
Relax doc; I'm sure you never made a lawyer joke....
Watch out, you could get :
Terex is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 04:28 PM
  #222  
zac
Senior Member
 
zac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 874

Bikes: I just ride them, they own me.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
Two week trial - probably $10k or so. Plus if he's convicted he can spend that again on an appeal. Not enough to break him though, probably not the reason he sold his house (if that's true).



It was a little kitschy, but I don't think it will backfire.

Think his own insurance paid to have his rear window replaced?
Two week trial, plus preparations and expert witness fees and costs. I wouldn't touch it for less than 25-40k retainer.
__________________
trans female, out and proud!

Hammer Nutrition 15% Referral Discount
MassBike.org - Same Road, Same Rules
zac is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 04:53 PM
  #223  
semaj
Senior Member
 
semaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 265

Bikes: Giant TCR Advanced

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Feed the bastard to the dogs! Vigilante justice will prevail if he doesn't get his punishment legally.
semaj is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 05:08 PM
  #224  
danarnold
Kaffee Nazi
 
danarnold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 1,374

Bikes: 2009 Kestrel RT800, 2007 Roubaix, 1976 Lambert-Viscount

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Raiden View Post
Haha, melodrama is right. The doctor's coat 'shroud' thing was a little silly. Sounds like something out of a Law & Order episode.
I think it was a mistake. Prob'ly won't make a difference, but she should not have done that... unless the doc actually showed up to court in a white coat. That would have been a mistake too.

Jurors do not like think the lawyer is manipulating them, or using 'showmanship.' I clever lawyer does just that, but the skill should be invisible. One way to accomplish that is to be direct, candid and honest.

She could have made her point better by painting the picture of him hiding behind the 'doctor's coat' in words. Actually acting it out is over the top
danarnold is offline  
Old 10-30-09, 06:00 PM
  #225  
bellweatherman
Senior Member
 
bellweatherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 2,104

Bikes: Too many to count

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The driver needs the death penalty. After that, they can throw away his driver's license.
bellweatherman is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.