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What is up with bike position, saddle high to the sky & handle bar to the ground.

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What is up with bike position, saddle high to the sky & handle bar to the ground.

Old 12-19-09, 07:55 PM
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What is up with bike position, saddle high to the sky & handle bar to the ground.


Eddy Merckx seemed to have a flat back & a more upright riding position. Today riders look like they will touch their toes any moment with a humped back. Eddy Merckx won everything, I think he was the greatest he rode the entire season. You would think that the flatter back would be preferred, better breathing right?

Picture from Tour de France
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Old 12-19-09, 08:01 PM
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actually, the cervelo only looks smaller because of the sloped top tube.
both bikes look to be about the same size with relatively similar bar/saddle height.


and then there's some other stuff about rider height, limb length, frame sizes and the advent of STI/Ergo/double tap.
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Old 12-19-09, 08:06 PM
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Probably provides better aerodynamics. I'm sure it's comfortable for these guys or they wouldn't be able to ride 100+ miles for days on end.
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Old 12-19-09, 08:13 PM
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Eddy thighs look to be further away from his body & todays racers it looks like their thighs are closer to the chest & stomach. Eddy's arms appear to be stretched out & not as close to the body. Pictures of his bike the saddle look to be closer to the same height as the drops compared to today bikes.

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Old 12-19-09, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by OldPilot
What is up with bike position, saddle high to the sky & handle bar to the ground.
Suffering...the essence of the sport...
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Old 12-19-09, 08:20 PM
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Merckx: long legs, short torso, long arms, flexible lower back.

You'll see a variety of rider positions on the pro circuit. Whatever delivers the most efficient pedal stroke for the course. I'll wager some of the "mules" are encouraged to ride in a more upright position to help break the wind for their team's GC stars and sprinters.
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Old 12-19-09, 08:26 PM
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the old pros spent more time in the drops, less on the goods or on the tops. today's pros are mostly on the hoods, getting into the drops for sprinting, breakaways and hard efforts in the wind.
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Old 12-19-09, 08:31 PM
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you are comparing two completely different types of riders. look at pantani or sastre.
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Old 12-19-09, 08:31 PM
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I'll first say - take my comment with a grain of salt...I'm still a bit of a newbie in the cycling world.

That aside..

I would say number one is preference. Some like to be more upright, which is why you see some drop-bars with the brake levers way up high but some are in the middle of the curve. But preference applies more to everday cyclists than professional cyclists, I would think.

Number two I believe would be the eras of these races. The first picture you have is obviously older - the frame looks to be steel, the wheels only single-walled, etc. Whereas in the second picture the bikes look to be aluminum - or more likely carbon - frames which are lighter and the racing wheels are lighter and much more aerodynamic. I bring up the eras because cycling technology has grown vastly in the past few decades and, just like with cars, we have figured out more and more about what is aerodynamic and what is not.

Speaking of aerodynamics, it is much easier (and you can go much faster!) the closer you are to the ground. That is why race cars are so low to the ground - it blocks wind from lifting the body upward and therefore lowering your torque. So, having a lighter, more condensed (but not smaller, because size is very important) frame, having the tighter and lighter wheelset, and having the drop bars all is a factor of aerodynamics. Another thing is - the more agressive the drop on your bars, the closer you will be to your frame and therefore the less wind will be hitting you head-on, which means you go real real fast!!!

Well, hope that helps.
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Old 12-19-09, 08:44 PM
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I'm pretty confident it's because Cervelo's are built like Treks. I dont know what kind of bike merckx rode, (probably not a merckx bike itself). I know on my Trek it's much harder to reach the drops, and that's why CSC guy is in the hoods, the drops are more uncomfortable.

Also notice the position of the hoods on both bikes. The ones for the CSC rider are much more accessible. Merckx actually has to reach around the handlebar to get them - meaning he will likely spend more time in the drops.
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Old 12-19-09, 08:50 PM
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Another observation is the saddle, saddles seem to be getting smaller & smaller. Look at Eddy's saddle, it appears to be wider in the back than saddles used today. Next thing you know it will be nothing more than a pad on the seat post.
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Old 12-19-09, 08:54 PM
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So much b.s.

I'm sure not many will read this because it's a two step process but:

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/za...LCULATOR_INTRO

then click "The Traditions of Road Riding and Our Three Styles of Fit"
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Old 12-19-09, 08:57 PM
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I just think its cool you choose my two favorite riders of all time for your example.
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Old 12-19-09, 09:04 PM
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On the 'old vs new' thing, riders in the 'old days' could still ride very low and aerodynamically, even though they were on slightly bigger bikes with higher bars. Check out pictures of guys like LeMond, and they could ride with their backs low a flat when they had to. It's a bit of a myth that most of us need a large bar drop to get aero

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Old 12-19-09, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kimconyc
So much b.s.

I'm sure not many will read this because it's a two step process but:

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/za...LCULATOR_INTRO

then click "The Traditions of Road Riding and Our Three Styles of Fit"
nice i was just about to mention this. especially with reference to the eddy fit. this is why i refer to sastre, with his known back problems, he uses a more relaxed fit.
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Old 12-19-09, 09:11 PM
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I've been following racing since the 80's and have a pretty good reference library. Not much has changed over the years - what was effective, efficient and comfortable still is. Its possible to get the impression that modern euro racers have more aero and aggressive positions if you just watch the US coverage, but that's often because we usually only get the last all-out part of a long race.
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Old 12-19-09, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kimconyc
So much b.s.

I'm sure not many will read this because it's a two step process but:

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/za...LCULATOR_INTRO

then click "The Traditions of Road Riding and Our Three Styles of Fit"
That is an interesting read, I wonder how much more aerodynamic the competitive fit is compared to Eddy or French fit? I wonder if it is style or performance that is driving the change?
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Old 12-19-09, 09:13 PM
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Things change. To object to progress is just retro grouchery (gauchery?), not an uncommon sport for the elderly.

Riders are faster these days. Maybe there's a reason...?
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Old 12-19-09, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by johnybutts
I'm pretty confident it's because Cervelo's are built like Treks. I dont know what kind of bike merckx rode, (probably not a merckx bike itself). I know on my Trek it's much harder to reach the drops, and that's why CSC guy is in the hoods, the drops are more uncomfortable.

Also notice the position of the hoods on both bikes. The ones for the CSC rider are much more accessible. Merckx actually has to reach around the handlebar to get them - meaning he will likely spend more time in the drops.
the blind leading the blind.
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Old 12-19-09, 09:31 PM
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The old racers had 10 speed bike & now the racers have 22 speeds, have the speeds increased or pretty much stayed the same? The old bikes were even heavier steel, 1971 is when Eddy won. (I am sure everyone know that I just learned that fact.)

1971 June 26-July 18, Mulhouse - Paris, 3,608km, 25 stages, 38.08km/h average speed winner
2009 July 4 - July 26, Monaco - Paris, 3,459.5km, 21 stages, 40.31km/h average speed winner

Last edited by OldPilot; 12-19-09 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 12-19-09, 09:35 PM
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In case anyone's interested, the end of the 1989 World Championships is a great example of how riders in the old days could ride with their upper bodies very low when they "droped the Hamer", even thought they had higher bars.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJSgzHTRg38
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Old 12-19-09, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DScott
Things change. To object to progress is just retro grouchery (gauchery?), not an uncommon sport for the elderly.

Riders are faster these days. Maybe there's a reason...?
1971 June 26-July 18, Mulhouse - Paris, 3,608km, 25 stages, 38.08km/h average speed winner
2009 July 4 - July 26, Monaco - Paris, 3,459.5km, 21 stages, 40.31km/h average speed winner

The only difference in average speed is 2km/h that is why I ask the question. You would think that the new bikes would have more impact on speed. Eddy rode further with 4 more stages & was only 2km/h slower than Contador.
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Old 12-19-09, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by umd
the blind leading the blind.
Illuminate & elaborate from a racers prospective, I would like to learn from a racer.
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Old 12-19-09, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OldPilot
1971 June 26-July 18, Mulhouse - Paris, 3,608km, 25 stages, 38.08km/h average speed winner
2009 July 4 - July 26, Monaco - Paris, 3,459.5km, 21 stages, 40.31km/h average speed winner

The only difference in average speed is 2km/h that is why I ask the question. You would think that the new bikes would have more impact on speed. Eddy rode further with 4 more stages & was only 2km/h slower than Contador.
1.2mph difference.. :yawn:

4 more stages with only 140km(87mi) extra. also you have to take into account different course.. especially mountains climbed. Then take into account a way different team riding style since Eddy was riding.

Oh and on stage what.. 14 this year when they took the radios away the riders all sat up and cruised most of the day

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Old 12-19-09, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OldPilot
Illuminate & elaborate from a racers prospective, I would like to learn from a racer.
"I'm pretty confident it's because Cervelo's are built like Treks."

wut

"I know on my Trek it's much harder to reach the drops"

That's a problem with the setup not that it's a Trek.

"and that's why CSC guy is in the hoods, the drops are more uncomfortable."

It's not that the drops are more uncomfortable, it's that the hoods are more comfortable. it's just that the style these days is to primarily use the drops for maximal efforts.

"Also notice the position of the hoods on both bikes. The ones for the CSC rider are much more accessible. Merckx actually has to reach around the handlebar to get them - meaning he will likely spend more time in the drops."

Again just the style. The hoods are designed to be a a riding position more than in the past.
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