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Why do I buy online? (Minor LBS rant.)

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Why do I buy online? (Minor LBS rant.)

Old 12-21-09, 10:57 AM
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Why do I buy online? (Minor LBS rant.)

Just so you know -- three years ago, I was a "THOU SHALT BUY FROM YOUR LBS ONLY" zealot. My nearest LBS is 55 miles away, but they dealt fairly and I was willing to pay a little more and wait a little longer to get what I wanted. One thing I wanted was to support local business. I purchased lots of stuff from this LBS and I referred tons of customers who also bought bikes, clothing, and accessories.

Over the past three years, though, my nearest LBS has driven me online. I realize they have to make a living, but the prices have become abusive. Today, my wife offered to drive to the LBS to get me a new chain and spare connecting pin. Nothing special. Shimano 10-speed chain and connecting pin. The chain was sold to my wife at 29% more than LIST price. Yes, you read that correctly: MY LBS SOLD MY WIFE A BICYCLE CHAIN FOR 29% OVER MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED LIST PRICE! (Edit: I was mistaken as to the 7900 chain's list price. Percentages have been corrected. Outrage remains.)

Lest this rant lose all its entertainent value, let's have a contest. Who can guess how much they charged her for the spare connecting pin?

Last edited by FlashBazbo; 12-21-09 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
Lest this rant lose all its entertainent value, let's have a contest. Who can guess how much they charged her for the spare connecting pin?
$14.95 + tax.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:02 AM
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Can you please include info on the chain model and price you paid?
It's possible they screwed up typing in a SKU or something, especially if the cashier is new. charging over MSRP usually gets shops in trouble with their dealers.


and also, new chains typically come with connecting pins

also.. use quick links rather than connecting pins
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Old 12-21-09, 11:06 AM
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Don't all Shimano chains come with 2 pins? All my DA chains have 2 pins in the plastic baggy.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
Just so you know -- three years ago, I was a "THOU SHALT BUY FROM YOUR LBS ONLY" zealot. My nearest LBS is 55 miles away, but they dealt fairly and I was willing to pay a little more and wait a little longer to get what I wanted. One thing I wanted was to support local business. I purchased lots of stuff from this LBS and I referred tons of customers who also bought bikes, clothing, and accessories.

Over the past three years, though, my nearest LBS has driven me online. I realize they have to make a living, but the prices have become abusive. Today, my wife offered to drive to the LBS to get me a new chain and spare connecting pin. Nothing special. Shimano 10-speed chain and connecting pin. The chain was sold to my wife at 50% more than LIST price. Yes, you read that correctly: MY LBS SOLD MY WIFE A BICYCLE CHAIN FOR 50% OVER MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED LIST PRICE!

Lest this rant lose all its
entertainent value, let's have a contest. Who can guess how much they charged her for the spare connecting pin?
Just a head shake
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Old 12-21-09, 11:13 AM
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Clausen, there's a mall near the LBS. Does that clear things up?

The chain is a Dura Ace 7900. The tab? $90

And why the spare pin? The last Dura Ace chain I bought only had one in the plastic envelope. And I don't want to be chainless in case I fumble around and snap or lose the thing. It's a long drive to get a replacement.

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Old 12-21-09, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by johnybutts
It's possible they screwed up typing in a SKU or something, especially if the cashier is new. charging over MSRP usually gets shops in trouble with their dealers.
That is what I'm assuming Sundance did to me... sold me a Bontrager Race Lite seatpost in a box with an X Lite label on it, so I paid $20 too much. Quite possibly a simple mistake, but it still makes me more hesitant to go to their shop over other.

I still prefer to buy from a local shop, but when they don't have it in stock and want to charge me full retail plus a special order fee, then wait 2-4 weeks for it to get here, no thanks.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:20 AM
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Why do I buy on-line?

Mostly convenience, then price: Items shipped to my business address. No hassle running around, even though I have more than a dozen LBS's within a short distance. Prices are also generally much lower for the most part.

This applies to most other things I buy, not just bike parts.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:29 AM
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For the record, my second nearest LBS (60 miles away) still seem to be good folks in the traditional LBS mold. They might have charged me list for the chain and pin, but that would have been okay. Unfortunately, there is no reason to go to that town except to go to the bike shop. (No mall to entice my wife into running errands for me during her Christmas break.)
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Old 12-21-09, 11:38 AM
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there are some items i will only buy online because lbs just cant compete on them, chains and tires are amongst them. paying over msrp is definitely abusive. I would e-mail the shops owner or manager if possible and make sure he knows what happened, if it was a simple SKU mistake they may make things right by you. if no, their loss.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:50 AM
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I'd never question a person's right to spend his money any way he wants, but I was a longtime Shimano user (meaning at least 20 years) until they started using that stupid pin. Since then I've used SRAM chains with connectors on all my bikes, mountain and road. Cheap, never had a problem, shifts fine* and I can install and remove by hand. Usually, anyway.

*for the record, I'm still using eight-speed on all but one bike, because eight is all I need. Shifts fine in that application.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Velo Dog
I'd never question a person's right to spend his money any way he wants, but I was a longtime Shimano user (meaning at least 20 years) until they started using that stupid pin. Since then I've used SRAM chains with connectors on all my bikes, mountain and road. Cheap, never had a problem, shifts fine* and I can install and remove by hand. Usually, anyway.

*for the record, I'm still using eight-speed on all but one bike, because eight is all I need. Shifts fine in that application.
I've never had a problem with the pin. I don't like SRAM chains. Not as smooth or quiet.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:57 AM
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Wow, 55 miles? My tolerance for riding my motorcycle to buy anything is around 15 max, on a car it's 10. If I have to travel longer to get it, I am ordering online.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:59 AM
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Wow. Last time I bought a new chain it was on Ebay--a 105 for about $20. Dude, for $90 you could buy a new chain, Wippermann and cassette and still have money left over for beer.
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Old 12-21-09, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by kyakdiver
Don't all Shimano chains come with 2 pins? All my DA chains have 2 pins in the plastic baggy.
My new Ultegra 6700 chain came with just one pin. I would guess the 7900 is no different. The previous editions came with two.

Oh, and I voted $10 for the extra pin. If they were willing to go overboard on the price of the chain, why would they stop there?
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Old 12-21-09, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
Just so you know -- three years ago, I was a "THOU SHALT BUY FROM YOUR LBS ONLY" zealot. My nearest LBS is 55 miles away, but they dealt fairly and I was willing to pay a little more and wait a little longer to get what I wanted. One thing I wanted was to support local business. I purchased lots of stuff from this LBS and I referred tons of customers who also bought bikes, clothing, and accessories.

Over the past three years, though, my nearest LBS has driven me online. I realize they have to make a living, but the prices have become abusive. Today, my wife offered to drive to the LBS to get me a new chain and spare connecting pin. Nothing special. Shimano 10-speed chain and connecting pin. The chain was sold to my wife at 29% more than LIST price. Yes, you read that correctly: MY LBS SOLD MY WIFE A BICYCLE CHAIN FOR 29% OVER MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED LIST PRICE! (Edit: I was mistaken as to the 7900 chain's list price. Percentages have been corrected. Outrage remains.)

Lest this rant lose all its entertainent value, let's have a contest. Who can guess how much they charged her for the spare connecting pin?
A 110 mile round trip to buy a chain?

Not trying to be a pain, but personally, I'd be more annoyed by the gas that could have been saved by ordering online than the LBS' markup. Unless she was out there anyway...by the wording of your post, I'm picturing her making a special trip for you.
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Old 12-21-09, 03:54 PM
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Yes...there seem to be more and more shops that will charge over MSRP for items.

I have never been accused of that

Shimano prices in general have gotten ridiculous.

Chain.... KMC DX10. Can be found for $25-$27 depending on market forces. OP you could have basically bought 4 of them for what you paid and they all would have had quick links as well.

EDIT: and all of this isn't just LBS this and that kind of stuff. It is a combination of an antiquated distribution model that still operates with phones and face to face dealing. The root issue is two-fold - the distributor is taking too large of a cut, and the dealer (LBS) is usually ignorant of the extent to which the classic LBS model has been commoditized. The answer is either a Dealer co-op...which inevitably will grow large enough that it will take it's own cut and everyone will be back in the same situation, or if LBSs realize that the effective business model for them is not pretend their products are not commodities and generate margin and revenue based on service/value that can not be commoditized.

Most LBSs will fail in that endeavour because it would mean embracing the customer's behaviors they despise.....their want and need to hang around and talk without buying product.
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Old 12-21-09, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Chain.... KMC DX10. Can be found for $25-$27 depending on market forces. OP you could have basically bought 4 of them for what you paid and they all would have had quick links as well.
Or I could have bought several dozen donuts!

Actually, the first strike against this LBS was three years ago when my Shimano rear derailleur repair came back with a less-than-specified chain. Due to the crappy chain and a horrible job of adjusting the new derailleur, shift quality was worse than before the repair. I warned my wife against substitutions. (Did I mention that I wanted a Shimano chain?)

The earlier repair was the final straw that caused me to learn how to do any repair on my bikes. I knew I couldn't do a worse job -- and, by now, I'm a whole lot better than their "professionals."
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Old 12-21-09, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Namenda
My new Ultegra 6700 chain came with just one pin. I would guess the 7900 is no different. The previous editions came with two.

Oh, and I voted $10 for the extra pin. If they were willing to go overboard on the price of the chain, why would they stop there?
I've only been buying the older version so that might have something to do with it. I'll have to keep this in mind when I end up buying some of the newer 7900 versions.
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Old 12-21-09, 04:04 PM
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Maybe the OP should learn the definition of "suggested".

Seriously. There is no binding formal or informal agreement that says a retailer has to abide by their suggested price. Learn to use a dictionary for ****s sake. Don't like the price? Don't buy it. Store inventory at the end of the year will reveal whether or not that price was acceptable to consumers.
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Old 12-21-09, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by operator
Maybe the OP should learn the definition of "suggested".

Seriously. There is no binding formal or informal agreement that says a retailer has to abide by their suggested price. Learn to use a dictionary for ****s sake. Don't like the price? Don't buy it. Store inventory at the end of the year will reveal whether or not that price was acceptable to consumers.
It's not really that simple. It is customary in the US in just about all markets to never charge over list. It is generally considered an insult to do so and has gone a long way towards ruining brand reputations - regardless of the fact that it was the dealer who was charging the higher rate.

I cite my industrial work when I was setting up dealers for our industrial products. When they charged over list price it would destroy our market share in the area. Even if we removed their dealer agreement and set up other dealers in that territory with deep discounts it would take a long time for us to gain our customer base back.

EDIT: To go a step further your thinking can go both ways. The manufacturers have established the pricing at wholesale as well as the MSRP in such a way as to set up a viable margin for the dealer. If the dealer doesn't like it....he doesn't have to sell the product.
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Old 12-21-09, 04:23 PM
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Psimet, I think you're right. It's not happening with this dealer yet (I don't think), but it will come.

A little background: This dealer was THE cyclist's bike shop when we moved to the area four years ago. Organized rides. Cycling teams. VERY cool stock of high-end road and mountain bikes and components. It was a BF forum member's paradise. It was the kind of shop where you went in and talked cycling with everybody. Not big sales traffic, but a popular place with the dedicated cyclists. If you wanted to buy a Zipp wheel from stock, this was the only place to go. Prices were negotiable, within reason.

Then, a couple of years ago, they changed strategies. They decided to go after the "regular citizen" market. TONS of kids' bikes. TONS of hybrid / comfort bikes. All selling at list. They now stock (and sell) probably 150+ "regular citizen" bikes for every dedicated road bike. Prices are no longer negotiable. (I priced a frameset there a couple of weeks ago and was told that the price was list price. No negotiating. And Specialized actually has the frames on clearance!) They've got huge sales traffic just about every day. I would be surprised if they aren't a LOT more profitable now. They've alienated the dedicated cyclist, but they don't care. They're not making their money with the dedicated cyclist.
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Old 12-21-09, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
It's not really that simple. It is customary in the US in just about all markets to never charge over list. It is generally considered an insult to do so and has gone a long way towards ruining brand reputations - regardless of the fact that it was the dealer who was charging the higher rate.

I cite my industrial work when I was setting up dealers for our industrial products. When they charged over list price it would destroy our market share in the area. Even if we removed their dealer agreement and set up other dealers in that territory with deep discounts it would take a long time for us to gain our customer base back.

EDIT: To go a step further your thinking can go both ways. The manufacturers have established the pricing at wholesale as well as the MSRP in such a way as to set up a viable margin for the dealer. If the dealer doesn't like it....he doesn't have to sell the product.

+1

Usually MSRP in the US means "if they charge more than this you're getting gouged." It's not universal, but that seems to be typical and it does follow in the cycling world.
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Old 12-21-09, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
Psimet, I think you're right. It's not happening with this dealer yet (I don't think), but it will come.

A little background: This dealer was THE cyclist's bike shop when we moved to the area four years ago. Organized rides. Cycling teams. VERY cool stock of high-end road and mountain bikes and components. It was a BF forum member's paradise. It was the kind of shop where you went in and talked cycling with everybody. Not big sales traffic, but a popular place with the dedicated cyclists. If you wanted to buy a Zipp wheel from stock, this was the only place to go. Prices were negotiable, within reason.

Then, a couple of years ago, they changed strategies. They decided to go after the "regular citizen" market. TONS of kids' bikes. TONS of hybrid / comfort bikes. All selling at list. They now stock (and sell) probably 150+ "regular citizen" bikes for every dedicated road bike. Prices are no longer negotiable. (I priced a frameset there a couple of weeks ago and was told that the price was list price. No negotiating. And Specialized actually has the frames on clearance!) They've got huge sales traffic just about every day. I would be surprised if they aren't a LOT more profitable now. They've alienated the dedicated cyclist, but they don't care. They're not making their money with the dedicated cyclist.
Clearly, in order to set our LBS straight, we must create an incredible used market for garage bikes so that no LBS can make a profit on them . Then they'll need us.

I suppose this *could* backfire.
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Old 12-21-09, 07:12 PM
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The 6700 chain I bought last week had one link pin in the package.

The 7900 chain I bought today has two link pins in the package.

At the price the LBS sold the spare link pin, I should have had them check the chain package and save the bucks on the spare.
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