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Trek Warranty vs Waterockets Poll #2

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway
View Poll Results: Trek VS Waterrockets #2 The FINAL POLL
Trek should haven fixed it for free
23.30%
Trek should have fixed it but charged him around $500.00
13.59%
Trek offered him 20% a new frame and that was good enough.
47.57%
Trek should continue to refused to warranty or help WR
15.53%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

Trek Warranty vs Waterockets Poll #2

Old 12-23-09, 10:13 AM
  #1  
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Trek Warranty vs Waterockets Poll #2

I thought the first poll was flawed. I don't think Trek should fully honor the warranty and I don't think WR should have been hosed by Trek. So here is a poll with more options. Vote early and often.

In case you missed it, here is what this is all about:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ng-a-used-Trek
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Old 12-23-09, 10:18 AM
  #2  
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Pardon me my West Linn brethren but I don't see a poll.

Am I the only one?
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Old 12-23-09, 10:22 AM
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Refresh and try again, it is there for me. When you post a poll the thread is posted as you complete the poll. Took me a few to get it done.
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Old 12-23-09, 10:22 AM
  #4  
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Let it go already!
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Old 12-23-09, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by R900 View Post
Let it go already!
Why?
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Old 12-23-09, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by R900 View Post
Let it go already!
Never.

Seriously, it is freezing fog outside. What else do I have to do. Ride the f'ing trainer?
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Old 12-23-09, 10:30 AM
  #7  
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Let me know when Trek is actually paying attention to the poll. Until then, they're all flawed.
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Old 12-23-09, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
Let me know when Trek is actually paying attention to the poll. Until then, they're all flawed.
I'm sure Trek is all over BF all day long following and subscribing to every Pcad post, studying his every nuanced reply to keep in touch with their customer base.
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Old 12-23-09, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
Let me know when Trek is actually paying attention to the poll. Until then, they're all flawed.
Naw these threads probably took years off the lives of some BF'er's..that makes them all worth it.
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Old 12-23-09, 10:36 AM
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Excellent game plan to bully trek into submission!
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Old 12-23-09, 10:38 AM
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There it is!
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Old 12-23-09, 10:40 AM
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Man, is it time to hit the campaign trail again? Already?
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Old 12-23-09, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Man, is it time to hit the campaign trail again? Already?
You are clearly very successful in persuasion.

How is that cracked BB looking these days?
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Old 12-23-09, 10:48 AM
  #14  
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Beat it, beat it.....no one likes to be defeated......

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Old 12-23-09, 10:50 AM
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It's interesting that many, if not all people expect businesses to bend their rules to help out someone - usually in the face of common sense, fairness, or simply good PR. Some examples would be letting you bring back something to the store 1 day after the return policy, exchanging something that cannot be resold because you changed your mind, expecting health insurance companies to pay for things that are clearly not covered or excluded in your plan, not paying your credit card bill or mortgage because you lost your job, asking the officer or parking attendant to "let you go" because you had an extenuating circumstance. The list goes on and on.

In many of these cases your signature appears on the contract indicating you've read and agreed to these rules. Sometimes there is a big sign on the wall stating the company policy for such things. Sometimes there is a speed limit sign or a curb painted yellow or red. Yet we still expect the companies to bend their rules or give you some sort of leeway out of the kindness of their corporate hearts. Somehow corporate policy has confused some people's sense of what is fair, right and wrong, ethical, or moral. All of which do not necessarily intersect for a given issue.

If the original owner contacted Trek would Trek replace the frame? They probably would. Why? Because he purchased the bike, warranty and Trek's motive for warrantying the frame is to keep him riding (and advertising) their brand so other people can go out and buy a (new) Trek and racing (and winning) on it. There is no ethical reason why they shouldn't warranty the frame of the subsequent owner.

What if auto manufacturers didn't warranty their vehicles to subsequent owners?

Consider that I won't buy another Trek because I know (and the future buyer of my used bike knows) that if the frame has problems down the line, they can't expect Trek to warranty it as if they purchased the bike new from a Trek dealer. Would I buy a Giant or other brand that has shown support for their resold frames despite what their warranty states? Sure!
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Old 12-23-09, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bontrager View Post
Consider that I won't buy another Trek because I know (and the future buyer of my used bike knows) that if the frame has problems down the line, they can't expect Trek to warranty it as if they purchased the bike new from a Trek dealer. Would I buy a Giant or other brand that has shown support for their resold frames despite what their warranty states? Sure!
I was going to ridicule you for making a serious post but then I read this and complete agree with you. Hell of a good point. Shouldn't the manufacturer warranty their product, period?
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Old 12-23-09, 11:01 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Hunt-man View Post
Shouldn't the manufacturer warranty their product, period?
Meh....maybe, maybe not.

Mistakes happen. Should they take care of their customers? Yes. Should they take care of people who bought their product but weren't their customers? meh....
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Old 12-23-09, 11:04 AM
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Psimet if I bought a set of your wheels from the original purchaser and it was found that you had screwed something up would you fix it or tell me tough luck? At the very least wouldn't you want to see the wheels and see if you had screwed up?
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Old 12-23-09, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Meh....maybe, maybe not.

Mistakes happen. Should they take care of their customers? Yes. Should they take care of people who bought their product but weren't their customers? meh....
Perhaps you should replace the following on your website with "Meh"

Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Do my custom wheels from PSIMET come with a warranty?

Some wheel builders give a lifetime warranty for their wheels. While I think we can all agree with the intent of offering that warranty it actually seems kind of silly for a couple of basic reasons:

Economics: In order to fix a wheel with a warranty issue you have to pay to ship it back. Then I have to pay to ship it back to you. In the end you could have gotten it serviced at a local bike shop for about the same cost of shipping or less, maybe had it quicker, and helped to support a local shop at the same time. This is why it is important to me to use commonly replaceable and serviceable components, which I do.

Conditions: Wheels can be frequently subjected to conditions that they just simply were never intended to be used under. These conditions can be adverse enough to cause damage in unforeseeable ways.

With that in mind I strive to achieve the best build I possibly can on every wheel set I build. It does me and my business no good if I send you a wheel that just doesnt perform as well or better than other wheels in the same conditions.

I will honor manufacturers warranties whenever possible and I am always willing to look at repairing any wheel that may have an issue. If repairs or replacements are needed I will strive to provide those repairs and parts at the best cost possible.
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Old 12-23-09, 11:12 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Hunt-man View Post
I thought the first poll was flawed. I don't think Trek should fully honor the warranty and I don't think WR should have been hosed by Trek. So here is a poll with more options. Vote early and often.

In case you missed it, here is what this is all about:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ng-a-used-Trek
...

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Old 12-23-09, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bontrager View Post
There is no ethical reason why they shouldn't warranty the frame of the subsequent owner.
Yeah, except that this is clearly not part of the coverage! This isn't some mystery veiled in mist. It's a legal document.

Originally Posted by Bontrager View Post
What if auto manufacturers didn't warranty their vehicles to subsequent owners?
Arbitrarily? There would a multitude of court cases and certain government legislation. Part of the original terms of purchase? A different story.

Originally Posted by Bontrager View Post
Consider that I won't buy another Trek because I know (and the future buyer of my used bike knows) that if the frame has problems down the line, they can't expect Trek to warranty it as if they purchased the bike new from a Trek dealer. Would I buy a Giant or other brand that has shown support for their resold frames despite what their warranty states? Sure!
You do understand that there is no guarantee that any manufacturer that does not expressly state they will cover defects for subsequent owners can, at any time, change their internal policies for a variety of reasons? That no matter what contorted logic you apply to your decision to not buy a Trek based on WR's non-covered frame, that any subsequent purchaser of Giant or "other brand that has (in the past) supported resold frames", is still rolling the dice and hoping?

Having a warranty is a guarantee. Not having one leaves you with a "hope". Just like when you roll the dice.
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Old 12-23-09, 11:18 AM
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Manufacturers don't establish their warranty policies arbitrarily. They do it after analyzing a number of factors, including (but certainly not limited to): (1) how long the frame is likely to last in the 95th percentile user's hands, (2) how long the initial purchaser is likely to own the frame, (3) how expensive it will be to replace the frame during the expected ownership of that first owner. The economics of all those forecasts determine what the warranty coverage will be. If they give more than that, it hits profits (and they've determined that it's not particularly helpful in adding sales). If they give less than that, it hits profits (because they've determined that it would negatively impact sales).

Let's face an important fact: Trek KNOWS that their "lifetime warranty" will almost never be for anybody's lifetime. From a practical perspective, it's NOT a lifetime warranty. They can't afford for it to be a "lifetime" warranty. If you could look inside Trek's database, you would discover that they know their 95th percentile original Trek buyer owns the frame for 2.9 years (arbitrary number on my part, but they would have the actual number). Trek depends on it being (if that's the right number) a 2.9 year warranty. And to expand that coverage beyond the "original buyer from an authorized Trek dealer" messes up the economic assumptions behind their warranty policy. To expand it, they would have to do as the automotive industry does -- establish that "hard date" (1 year, 2 years) beyond which nobody receives warranty coverage.

Trek wants to use this warranty to provide incentives for people to buy NEW bikes from THEM. Why? Because they don't get any money from second-hand bike sales. They are in the business of selling NEW bikes to ORIGINAL OWNERS. It's a business.

Last edited by FlashBazbo; 12-23-09 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 12-23-09, 11:20 AM
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Waterrockets 3, Return of the Undead Thread.
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Old 12-23-09, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo View Post
Psimet if I bought a set of your wheels from the original purchaser and it was found that you had screwed something up would you fix it or tell me tough luck? At the very least wouldn't you want to see the wheels and see if you had screwed up?
Great question. It's a tricky thing. I have an explanation on my site in the FAQ section, but in general i can say this -

I want to do a good job. If something happens I want to know why. If something happened that was in my opinion my own fault I would probably feel bad enough about it to make some concessions. If it was a component manufacturer's failure then I would take it up with them. At the least I would want to see the problem. All of this, for me, would be true for the original buyer or subsequent owners. I serialize every wheel so I would know just about everything about it.

I'm also a small business. If it wan't the primary purchaser and they were getting snooty about it I would be darn sure not to be taking any loss. I probably wouldn't make any profit on it either. Just no loss for sure.

Devil is always in the details though so I usually don't like to make blanket statements. I would deal with each situation differently.

Example - I had a customer who told me they broke some spokes and were having a difficult time sourcing the particular type. honestly I knew that the customer was a little on the....uh....gravitationally enhanced side of things and that the spokes were not the best application to begin with. I had mentioned that to him before he even bought and he acknowledged that. Still....didn't make me feel any better about it.

When I asked for more details to help determine the cause he was kind of vauge about it and really didn't want anything in return....just some more spokes to buy. I had some spokes on hand and shipped them out priority for free. Complicated situation - a custom build for someone I have never seen in person, a stretch of the initial application, was it a failure due to manufacture? assembly? application? normal use - did he hit a truck? who knows.
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Old 12-23-09, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Manufacturers don't establish their warranty policies arbitrarily. They do it after analyzing a number of factors, including (but certainly not limited to): (1) how long the frame is likely to last in the 95th percentile user's hands, (2) how long the initial purchaser is likely to own the frame, (3) how expensive it will be to replace the frame during the expected ownership of that first owner. The economics of all those forecasts determine what the warranty coverage will be. If they give more than that, it hits profits (and they've determined that it's not particularly helpful in adding sales). If they give less than that, it hits profits (because they've determined that it would negatively impact sales).

Let's face an important fact: Trek KNOWS that their "lifetime warranty" will almost never be for anybody's lifetime. From a practical perspective, it's NOT a lifetime warranty. They can't afford for it to be a "lifetime" warranty. If you could look inside Trek's database, you would discover that they know their 95th percentile original Trek buyer owns the frame for 2.9 years (arbitrary number on my part, but they would have the actual number). Trek depends on it being (if that's the right number) a 2.9 year warranty. And to expand that coverage beyond the "original buyer from an authorized Trek dealer" messes up the economic assumptions behind their warranty policy. To expand it, they would have to do as the automotive industry does -- establish that "hard date" (1 year, 2 years) beyond which nobody receives warranty coverage.
This is a nice thought and certainly true when you have a decent reliability engineer on staff and enough product in the field to be able to establish the statistics, but many companies just simply don't have those resources and sothey establish - arbitraily - what they feel is the best policy from a marketing standpoint.

I could easily say on my site - "I will stand completely behind every wheel that I make for the life of the product" but let's face it - I don't know how people are going to apply the product, I only have control over the assembly, etc. there are just too many variables to make a blanket statement for me - especially knowing that any 1 situation, if I had a policy like that, could devastate the business.

That said I have a very good attorney friend who likes to point out that contracts and legal documents are basically meaningless. The money involved in the euquation on both sides determines the outcome regardless of facts or protection.
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