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Pedaling Technique Thread: Heed My Warning
When you pedal, do you ever notice your knees doing something funny?
It doesn't hurt at all, but you see them move around as you pedal. They're not consistently in line with your feet and they collapse inward or move outward when you pedal. No big deal, right? WRONG! Ever since I started riding, my right knee would collapse inward every pedal stroke. Never caused pain or anything, and my fitters said that it wasn't a big deal. I'm here to tell you different. When your knees move like that, it's normally a case of a muscle weakness in your quad. If your knee collapses inwards, it means that your outer quad is stronger than your inner quad (VMO weakness). What this means, is that you're setting yourself up for injury. It happened to me. I was racing all last year up to 5 times a week, and training hard. I was NOT overtraining and I thought everything was fine, that was till my knee started feeling funny. I felt fine on the bike, but off the bike my knee would really hurt. The pain didn't go away, so I stopped riding for a bit. When I rode, the pain came right back again. Turns out, my imbalance led to chondromalacia. I've been off training for half a year now, and have been rehabbing. I can ride easy now with pain that lasts only for an evening. That is awesome compared to what it used to be. My warning is simply to keep an eye out for movements that don't look right and then check with your PT or medical person to see if this is a movement issue that needs to be addressed. We do this for fun, but need to pay attention to our bodies and make sure that we don't set ourselves up for injury. Thanks for reading. |
Thanks for the warning. Must get round to doing something about this...
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knock kneed can also mean that your feet need a wider stance.
spread eagle is the opposite. |
Yeah, try this:
Do a squat just with your body (no additional weight). Legs side by side around shoulder width. Now, bend down to around parallel with your arms out in front. Where do your knees go? If they collapse inwards, your inner quads are weak. Start doing these and pushing your legs out by controlling that muscle. You'll feel it in the inner quad. That's one of the rehab exercises I've been told to do. There are a host of other issues that might be to blame. My point is simply that when you concentrate on working one part of your body and neglect the resulting imbalances, you can really get some bad issues if you don't take care of things.
Originally Posted by AEO
(Post 10717273)
knock kneed can also mean that your feet need a wider stance.
spread eagle is the opposite. In any event, stance is one thing, but it can also be caused by muscle imbalances as it was in my case. Point is, if they're doing something funny, figure it out and address it (PT, shims, wider/narrower cranks, etc) or it might lead to injury. |
too narrow = your knees bow into each other
too wide = your knees bow outward. |
Glad you figured it out. My fitter guy says if we're not tracking straight we're creating friction in the joint and there's always a reason. Could be physical or fit and one can cause the other problem.
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" I was racing all last year up to 5 times a week, and training hard. I was NOT overtraining and I thought everything was fine"
This the very definition of overtraining. You developed "Chondromalcia Patella" which is basically an overuse syndrome from excessive stress to the knee joint. This is a pretty common disorder in athletes including cyclist. There is tons of info on the internet on Chondromalacia Patella. The cause of this is not an abnormal pedaling technique in the sense that anyone who pedals wrong is destined to get it. It is degenerative knee disorder that anyone can get from overuse, injury or sometimes arthritis of the patella. I hope you are able to get back on the bike ASAP. |
Chondromalacia patellae & patellar tracking issues due to VMO weakness are, indeed, very common. Unfortunately, it appears to be magnified in the (enthusiast) cycling population. Functionally, the VMO really only "kicks in" for roughly the last 30 deg. of knee extension. When seated, can you guess how much knee extension is "blocked off" at the bottom of each pedal stroke? If your fit & seat height are correct, it should be about 30 degrees. The terminal 30 deg. of knee extension isn't seen much on a properly fitted bike. Obviously, not everyone will have RTC's unfortunate experience, but there are steps you can take to help prevent or correct the "strength imbalance". My favorite are:
1. Short arc quad sets in the form of (body weight) wall squats or (weighted) leg extensions. I prefer the wall squats, but just remember to keep the range of motion small- a 30 deg. arc is pretty short. Return to the start position in a slow & controlled manner. 2. Step-ups & Step-downs are nice because you can do them almost anywhere. When you step up, make a conscious effort to keep "squeezing" the VMO throughout the range. Hold it, still "squeezing", for a 3-count and return to the starting position slowly, still "squeezing" the VMO to control your speed. Relax & repeat. 3. Lunges are a nice way to strengthen the entire quad complex without neglecting the VMO. Just don't do them in public while wearing running shorts. Please. Naturally, for those not coming back from injury or already possessing a high level of fitness, those exercises may seem quite easy. Those folks just need to be creative in increasing the intensity via more sets/reps, added weight, etc. As always, YMMV & be sure to see a doc for any chronic or lingering problems. |
Not overtraining but riding hard and racing[?] 5 times a week mmmm? Your lying , where do they have races 5 days a week? Everyone needs a rest day or LIGHT ride after racing. If your riding as much as you say how do you get weak quad's? Mine are huge and I train at the gym to keep everything balanced.
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Originally Posted by pedalhard
(Post 10717917)
Not overtraining but riding hard and racing[?] 5 times a week mmmm? Your lying , where do they have races 5 days a week? Everyone needs a rest day or LIGHT ride after racing. If your riding as much as you say how do you get weak quad's? Mine are huge and I train at the gym to keep everything balanced.
Why is this so unbelievable to you? While I certainly don't doubt the relative huge-ness of your quads :rolleyes:, what the OP has described appears to be more a case of muscle strength imbalance and not an explicit "weakness" of his quads. The VMO must pretty much work solo (against 3 other larger muscles, no less) to help keep the patella tracking correctly. Obviously, cycling is a great way to build leg strength, but due to the accepted (and certainly valid) seated pedaling position, the VMO can easily be neglected and therefore perform "weakly", relative to the other 3 muscles in the group. |
so I guess attempting to force one's knees inward while pedaling to achieve a more aero position is a bad idea
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Originally Posted by pedalhard
(Post 10717917)
Your lying ,
Listen to RTC, he's been through some rough times cycling wise the past year and knows what he's talking about. |
Originally Posted by pedalhard
(Post 10717917)
Not overtraining but riding hard and racing[?] 5 times a week mmmm? Your lying , where do they have races 5 days a week? Everyone needs a rest day or LIGHT ride after racing. If your riding as much as you say how do you get weak quad's? Mine are huge and I train at the gym to keep everything balanced.
Sophomore year of college (about 2.5 years ago) I started riding my bike seriously. Loved it. I got into training for races and racing that spring. Had a bad crash, like 5 broken bones in my face, reconstruction surgery, the works. That was in april sophy year. Had to go home from college, finish school work from home, then come back in the fall. I watched every day of the tour from home. Wanted to destroy everything after my wreck. Cycling was how I coped. The fall was me being weak as hell and building up. My first race back in the spring, I got pulled. 2 weeks later something clicked. During crit season, I raced 2-5 times a week and for a 2 weekend period, I didn't finish out of the money or points when I was racing for me. 1 tuesday night training crit. 2 races saturday, 2 races sunday. It's really not that complicated. Last fall, I had a retul fit which lowered my saddle, which made the knee issue worse because of my imbalance. I also started racing cross, and that didn't help either. Now, I'm rehabbing from that injury and a back injury. I'll be racing again in the spring, possibly 2-5 times a week. I hope that's okay with you, if it's not, I'll do it anyway. I'm also curious what wattages you can hit with those tree trunk legs of yours. So please, if you have a bone to pick with someone, check yourself. Kthxbai.
Originally Posted by knowledgdropper
(Post 10717770)
Chondromalacia patellae & patellar tracking issues due to VMO weakness are, indeed, very common. Unfortunately, it appears to be magnified in the (enthusiast) cycling population. Functionally, the VMO really only "kicks in" for roughly the last 30 deg. of knee extension. When seated, can you guess how much knee extension is "blocked off" at the bottom of each pedal stroke? If your fit & seat height are correct, it should be about 30 degrees. The terminal 30 deg. of knee extension isn't seen much on a properly fitted bike. Obviously, not everyone will have RTC's unfortunate experience, but there are steps you can take to help prevent or correct the "strength imbalance". My favorite are:
1. Short arc quad sets in the form of (body weight) wall squats or (weighted) leg extensions. I prefer the wall squats, but just remember to keep the range of motion small- a 30 deg. arc is pretty short. Return to the start position in a slow & controlled manner. 2. Step-ups & Step-downs are nice because you can do them almost anywhere. When you step up, make a conscious effort to keep "squeezing" the VMO throughout the range. Hold it, still "squeezing", for a 3-count and return to the starting position slowly, still "squeezing" the VMO to control your speed. Relax & repeat. 3. Lunges are a nice way to strengthen the entire quad complex without neglecting the VMO. Just don't do them in public while wearing running shorts. Please. Naturally, for those not coming back from injury or already possessing a high level of fitness, those exercises may seem quite easy. Those folks just need to be creative in increasing the intensity via more sets/reps, added weight, etc. As always, YMMV & be sure to see a doc for any chronic or lingering problems. If you have one of those quad curl machines, then do those and add reps at the end when you work from 30* extension to full extension with your foot pointing outwards as this will target the inner quad. In addition, squats and lunges with a narrower (shoulder width) stance will allow you to recruit the VMO more, especially if you push outwards. I've been lifting the last few months and the issue has been getting better. I did my first long ride in almost half a year today with very little discomfort. From now on, 2 gym days will be in my weekly training regiment. |
Originally Posted by pedalhard
(Post 10717917)
Not overtraining but riding hard and racing[?] 5 times a week mmmm? Your lying , where do they have races 5 days a week? Everyone needs a rest day or LIGHT ride after racing. If your riding as much as you say how do you get weak quad's? Mine are huge and I train at the gym to keep everything balanced.
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With all due respect to rtc I have some knee movement when I pedal. I also have some classic chlondro-whatever symptoms, but not serious enough to worry about it. Trust me, I worried about it for a long time when I had first started riding, especially since I read about John Howard and his knee problems (magazines seemed to be writing articles on him and his knees every month). But ultimately I seem to have avoided problems. Just like my training in general, I never did anything specific. I just went easy when I thought I should (pain etc), harder when I felt I could.
cdr |
my right knee tracks inwards but that is because my right foot angles out 15 degrees more than it should. This is actually what I should be doing according to my fitter (one of the best in the country). I do have cleat wedges installed which helps but my physiology naturally tracks my knee that way. I am told that as long as I don't have any lateral movement it will be fine. YMMV
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My knees sometimes hit the top tube. I guess I should take a look at that. When I got a fitting I was told that it was genetic.
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 10718113)
Lets see:
Sophomore year of college (about 2.5 years ago) I started riding my bike seriously. Loved it. I got into training for races and racing that spring. Had a bad crash, like 5 broken bones in my face, reconstruction surgery, the works. That was in april sophy year. Had to go home from college, finish school work from home, then come back in the fall. I watched every day of the tour from home. Wanted to destroy everything after my wreck. Cycling was how I coped. The fall was me being weak as hell and building up. My first race back in the spring, I got pulled. 2 weeks later something clicked. During crit season, I raced 2-5 times a week and for a 2 weekend period, I didn't finish out of the money or points when I was racing for me. 1 tuesday night training crit. 2 races saturday, 2 races sunday. It's really not that complicated. Last fall, I had a retul fit which lowered my saddle, which made the knee issue worse because of my imbalance. I also started racing cross, and that didn't help either. Now, I'm rehabbing from that injury and a back injury. I'll be racing again in the spring, possibly 2-5 times a week. I hope that's okay with you, if it's not, I'll do it anyway. I'm also curious what wattages you can hit with those tree trunk legs of yours. So please, if you have a bone to pick with someone, check yourself. Kthxbai. Yup! If you have one of those quad curl machines, then do those and add reps at the end when you work from 30* extension to full extension with your foot pointing outwards as this will target the inner quad. In addition, squats and lunges with a narrower (shoulder width) stance will allow you to recruit the VMO more, especially if you push outwards. I've been lifting the last few months and the issue has been getting better. I did my first long ride in almost half a year today with very little discomfort. From now on, 2 gym days will be in my weekly training regiment. |
Originally Posted by pedalhard
(Post 10721188)
Sorry not a liar just stupid.
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I will agree we should all watch our form but I also say we should not agree with everything we read. I am naturally knock kneed and pigeon toed, yes I suck, but if I was to ride without knees pointed in I wouldn't be riding for long. I know as I was told by so called expert that my knees were coming to close to TT. Well talk about pain. I now ride with my inner leg nearly touching TT all the time and no pain issues at all. Go figuire.
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A common problem for both rowers (I'm a fulltime coach) and cyclists is 'ilio-tibial band' syndrome. Basically the same mechanical aspect of these sports encourages a very tight outer thigh which is then linked in to the type of problem that the OP has. The stronger outer side of the thigh over powers inner part (VMO - vastus medialis) and effectively pulls the knee out of it's natural alignment, thus causing problems.
The cause of any individuals problem may differ (weak VMO/poor muscle activation order, tight glutes, others) but it is a serious problem that can lead to chronic injury. Solutions: diagnosis of the factors causing it, better technique, stretching, remedial training to restore balance to muscle groups. |
rtc,
Weren't you also doing some pretty heavy weight lifting in there, too? Hope you can get it all sorted out. |
thanks for the warning.
In a conscious effort to avoid bow legged pedalling and reading that it is more efficient to pull the knee in towards the inside, I have been consciously pulling the knee in. I think I might stop doing that. |
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