Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Cycling and Lipolysis

Old 08-31-04, 11:29 PM
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Cycling and Lipolysis

I'm kinda confused,
if you're munching on gels and bars and the likes with boat loads of carbs, when do you actually start burning fat? maybe my gf told me wrong, but she said in her nursing studies, she learned that lipolysis will actually not take place until AFTER all the sugar stores are used up?

melloboy
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Old 09-01-04, 12:21 AM
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.......see, ya use big words & no-one wants to talk to ya!!!...lol
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Old 09-01-04, 12:26 AM
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What you've got to remember... we are just convicts in this big Southern land. We aren't allowed to have a brain to think for ourselves, or understand big words.

Now repeat after me...
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Old 09-01-04, 01:10 AM
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It's my understanding from a family member who is a sports trainer for pro and amateur athletes that you don't really burn any fat during your aerobic exercise routines. Most of the energy for that type of exercise is taken care of by the food you eat. Now, if we're talking century rides and marathons, I'd imagine that you do eventually get to a point where you're burning fat and not carbs.

What he did say was that your body burns most of your fat while you sleep and your stomach is empty. The amount of fat you burn is directly related to how big your muscles are. He said that any meaningful weight loss routine must be accompanied by weights, as well as aerobic exercise.

Again, if you're riding 30 miles a day, every day of the week, I think this changes things a bit. But for most folks, who don't have time in their lives to devote 2 hours to exercise every day, building muscles in addition to aerobic exercise is recommended for weight loss.

Daily exercise does serve a purpose though, it burns the calories from the food you eat. My only comparison is my personal experiences. On days that I don't bike, I'm simply not as hungry and I feel more full longer after meals. On days that I do exercise, I'm much more hungry. I'm not sure if anyone else has the same experience, I'd actually be interested to hear from other on this.

I don't know if that answers your question, I'm not even sure I understood the question but I trust that my cousin is pretty qualified, being that this is his profession.

Dave

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Old 09-01-04, 01:14 AM
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Dave,
so if i goto sleep with a full stomach with say..a Carl's Jr. 1lb burger in it, I won't burn any fat because (i'm assuming) that burger has a ton of fat in it? also, why is it, then, good to eat more smaller meals a day than 3 big meals a day? wouldn't that mean you're constantly putting stuff in your stomach, thus not burning much fat?

basically i'm about 20-30lb (i think) overweight and i ride about 20 miles a day...more on weekends. when does my sugar burning end and fat burning start? lol...when i goto sleep?
melloboy

Originally Posted by greenstork
What he did say was that your body burns most of your fat while you sleep and your stomach is empty. The amount of fat you burn is directly related to how big your muscles are. He said that any meaningful weight loss routine must be accompanied by weights, as well as aerobic exercise.
Dave
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Old 09-01-04, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MelloBoy
Dave,
so if i goto sleep with a full stomach with say..a Carl's Jr. 1lb burger in it, I won't burn any fat because (i'm assuming) that burger has a ton of fat in it? also, why is it, then, good to eat more smaller meals a day than 3 big meals a day? wouldn't that mean you're constantly putting stuff in your stomach, thus not burning much fat?

basically i'm about 20-30lb (i think) overweight and i ride about 20 miles a day...more on weekends. when does my sugar burning end and fat burning start? lol...when i goto sleep?
melloboy
It's my understanding that it does start only when you go to sleep since you're waking hours (including exercise) are fueled by the food you eat throughout the day.

As for smaller meals, you have to remember that the process of digesting food burns calories too. It's better to have a small amount of food in your stomach all day, than periods of a full and empty stomach. Seems counterintuitive to me, but that's how I understand it.

I wouldn't recommend eating before bed, not just for the reason that it might hinder your ability to lose weight, but it's really bad for heartburn and your esophagus. To be clear though, I just don't know how eating before bed affects weight loss.
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Old 09-01-04, 06:48 AM
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while it is true that fat stores aren't the 1st line enrergy source in our bodies, it does occur well before sugar is used up. our bodies are machines, and there is no chance our bodies would run all the way down on one energy source before using another. the chemical rxn that takes place by the liver to mobilize fat stores takes about 30-40 minutes during steady exercise.
people who make the mistake of exercising (running) for 45 minutes don't really lose weight because they are just beginning the fat mobilization as they are ending their exercise.

you have to differenciate between the cyclist who is trying to lose weight and a racer/cyclist who eats to fuel himself.

***all of the teaching books assume a sedentary lifestyle. when energy demands aren't great, then the body can afford to be slow to burn fat stores. you can't compare burning fat during riding to just existing (see base metabolism)

i ride 220+ miles a week, rides peppered with speedplay, intervals, long and slow rides and fast, balls out rides. i eat anything i want and then some. i look for carbs. and i used to be 206 lbs at my heaviest. i have been 180 for 8 + years now, holding steady.

***if you ride 6 days a week like i do, then eating fat, carbs late at night is key. it takes a lot more than a few hours or on the bike eating to build up stores for high energy 65-70 mile rides. you need to start 2 days in advance.

remember: there is a difference between being naturally thin (a traditional speed cyclists body) and someone that is trying to squeeze an endomorph's body into an exonmorph's body type.
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Old 09-01-04, 09:38 AM
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Wait a minute! I think we're onto something here. Hmmm, you burn fat when you're sleeping. Instead of getting up at 5:00 am to ride for two hours every day, in a vain attempt to lose weight, I can sleep late, take a nap in the afternoon and go to bed early thus giving myself more sleeping (fat burning) time. I like it!
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Old 09-01-04, 10:24 AM
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I'm not a doctor (no, not even on TV), but have enough personal experience and did some research over the years in this area.
the body runs on carbohydrates (or 'Drades, as I call em). the body stores carbohydrates in the form of glucogen in the muscle and liver. stored glocogen is what we use as fuel for the muscles. A normal person has enough glucogen for 2-3 hours of cycling and if we continue to ride when we are out of clucogen we will bonk.
If we do not consume carbohydrates, the body can make glucogen by breaking up fat in the liver and converting it to a form of glucose, however this is an inefficient process and it is slow. Too slow to provide enough glucose to continue to ride hard which burns glucose faster then the liver can make it from fat..

so the answer is yes, we burn fat when we ride, but we burn more fat after we done riding, when the body if converting fat to glucose in order to replenish the glucogen stores.. Athletes such as TdF riders need to carbo-load between days of riding because the body doesn't have enough time to replenish enough glucogen over night just from fat alone, and a rider must eat a lot of carbohydrates to replenish the glucogen stores..


I have been on a low carb diet for 3 years, lost 105lb and while on low carb diet I was lifting weights and riding bike. There is no way I could ride (real riding, not putting around town) more then 2 hours without eating carbs.. But if I am mindful about carbs for the day or two after a hard ride, I will lose 1-2 pound of fat just by resting.. It take longer to recover between hard rides on a low carb diet, but hey, I rather lose more weight then ride every day (for now)....


(Edit: crabs?? )

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Old 09-01-04, 10:39 AM
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"I have been on a low carb diet for 3 years, lost 105lb and while on low carb diet I was lifting weights and riding bike. There is no way I could ride (real riding, not putting around town) more then 2 hours without eating carbs.. But if I am mindful about crabs for the day or two after a hard ride, I will lose 1-2 pound of fat just by resting.. It take longer to recover between hard rides on a low carb diet, but hey, I rather lose more weight then ride every day (for now)...."



first i'd take care off them crabs...then worry about the carbs...
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Old 09-01-04, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kerny
"I have been on a low carb diet for 3 years, lost 105lb and while on low carb diet I was lifting weights and riding bike. There is no way I could ride (real riding, not putting around town) more then 2 hours without eating carbs.. But if I am mindful about crabs for the day or two after a hard ride, I will lose 1-2 pound of fat just by resting.. It take longer to recover between hard rides on a low carb diet, but hey, I rather lose more weight then ride every day (for now)...."



first i'd take care off them crabs...then worry about the carbs...
Yeah, you right.. but that a different type of cream..
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Old 09-01-04, 10:52 AM
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If you are burning fat on a ride, your body is in big distress, lipolysis is too slow a process to get energy during hard exercise. Greater muscle mass and muscle repair after the ride is where fat is "burned" (feel your legs ~2hrs after a hard ride, temperture is higher). Just having more muscle takes more energy for the body, even sleeping, this is why muscle mass is reduced if not used.

You need carbs if you do something. Carb-free diets are for people who do nothing and want to lose weight.
 
Old 09-01-04, 11:04 AM
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This reminds me of the same principle as applied to weight training -- you do not build muscle/strength while you are lifting the weights--you are straining your body. It's the body's recovery process in response to the strain that actually creates more muscle.
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Old 09-01-04, 11:22 AM
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You know this thread has me thinking...thinking that I am actually hurting myself in my weight loss goals with my routine. I currently ride to work and back (not very far but better for me than driving), on Mon and Wed I run 3.5 miles at lunch followed by an Endurox R4 drink. On Tues I ride after work and I do bigger rides on Sat and Sun which are also followed by Endurox R4 drink. I was drinking the R4 to help speed muscle recovery and stop any post exercise muscle damage but is it actually slowing my fat burning? If so I am stopping now.
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Old 09-01-04, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Grasschopper
You know this thread has me thinking...thinking that I am actually hurting myself in my weight loss goals with my routine. I currently ride to work and back (not very far but better for me than driving), on Mon and Wed I run 3.5 miles at lunch followed by an Endurox R4 drink. On Tues I ride after work and I do bigger rides on Sat and Sun which are also followed by Endurox R4 drink. I was drinking the R4 to help speed muscle recovery and stop any post exercise muscle damage but is it actually slowing my fat burning? If so I am stopping now.
Again, I'm no Doctor or nutrition expert. All I have is personal experience and research on MYSELF. I would say that if you do not drink a carb rich drink after a ride, you will lose more weight. If you work really really hard (to the brink of boinking) it will take you longer to recover without the drink, but you WILL lose more weight.. This assumes that my theory on low carb is correct.. but it works for me.
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Old 09-01-04, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Grasschopper
You know this thread has me thinking...thinking that I am actually hurting myself in my weight loss goals with my routine. I currently ride to work and back (not very far but better for me than driving), on Mon and Wed I run 3.5 miles at lunch followed by an Endurox R4 drink. On Tues I ride after work and I do bigger rides on Sat and Sun which are also followed by Endurox R4 drink. I was drinking the R4 to help speed muscle recovery and stop any post exercise muscle damage but is it actually slowing my fat burning? If so I am stopping now.
I'm not a scientists here but here's my take:

In order to build muscles, you need protein. Also, in order to use your muscles, you need carbs. At first glance on the Endurox site, the drink replenishes carbs and provides protein. Without the protein, you can't build/grow/repair muscles.

The way I understand it is the more muscles you have, the more calories you burn. It just take more calories to power larger muscles. So, I think the protein you're getting from this drink is good. It's helping to grow your muscles after a hard workout, and replenish carbs that get used up in your workout, saving you from crashing the rest of the day.

My take is that these types of drinks are really only necessary if you're working really hard. I don't feel like my 15 miles a day commuting and 30-40 miles trips on the weekends justify something like this. I'm just not trashing my muscles that bad, I seem to get all the energy I need from food and the occasional energy bar. If you ride and jog so hard that you find yourself pretty sore for a couple of days, then perhaps you're working hard enough to justify this supplement. But if you're not working that hard, it seems like unnecessary calories to me.

Again, I'm not a nutritionist and have no real experience here, just thought I'd throw in my two cents.
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Old 09-01-04, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by greenstork
I'm not a scientists here but here's my take:

In order to build muscles, you need protein. Also, in order to use your muscles, you need carbs. At first glance on the Endurox site, the drink replenishes carbs and provides protein. Without the protein, you can't build/grow/repair muscles.

The way I understand it is the more muscles you have, the more calories you burn. It just take more calories to power larger muscles. So, I think the protein you're getting from this drink is good. It's helping to grow your muscles after a hard workout, and replenish carbs that get used up in your workout, saving you from crashing the rest of the day.

My take is that these types of drinks are really only necessary if you're working really hard. I don't feel like my 15 miles a day commuting and 30-40 miles trips on the weekends justify something like this. I'm just not trashing my muscles that bad, I seem to get all the energy I need from food and the occasional energy bar. If you ride and jog so hard that you find yourself pretty sore for a couple of days, then perhaps you're working hard enough to justify this supplement. But if you're not working that hard, it seems like unnecessary calories to me.

Again, I'm not a nutritionist and have no real experience here, just thought I'd throw in my two cents.
I guess I sould state that I am using the Endurox R4 as a replacement for my lunch meal. I will agree with your statement that I feel the R4 helps with the rest of my day...actually I feel fine almost as if I hadn't exercised (well my muscles will be a little sore).
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Old 09-01-04, 12:05 PM
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It's really very simple. Aerobic exercise does burn a high percentage of fat. As you excercise harder the amount of fat your burn decreases and your carbohydrate usage will rise.
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Old 09-01-04, 12:06 PM
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http://www.cptips.com/weight.htm

Great description of cycling and weight control. Other topics go deep into nutrition and physiology.
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Old 09-01-04, 12:07 PM
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Here is an research publication (MedScape) about sports drinks... Interesting.. Just rememberer that this applies to people who ride really really hard, and they are not trying to lose weight. These people tested here are all about increasing performance, which is very different goal then losing weight..


____________________________________________________________

Adding Protein to Sports Drink Improves Performance CME
News Author: Laurie Barclay, MD
CME Author: Charles Vega, MD, FAAFP


Release Date: July 9, 2004


July 9, 2004 — A sports drink containing protein with carbohydrate improves performance and decreases muscle injury, according to the results of a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial reported in the July issue of Science & Medicine in Sports & Exercise.

Earlier studies have shown that carbohydrate sports drinks containing carbohydrate and electrolytes are more effective than water in improving hydration and increasing endurance. This study compared Gatorade to Accelerade, a new protein-containing sports drink.

"This study provides further confirmation of the value of adding protein to a conventional carbohydrate electrolyte sports drink," lead author Michael J. Saunders, PhD, from James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia, says in a news release. "Our results suggest that athletes in all sports, including running, cycling, soccer, and tennis, where endurance and recovery are critical would benefit from a protein-containing sports drink such as Accelerade."

In this study, 15 male cyclists rode a cycle ergometer at 75% peak oxygen consumption per unit time (VO2peak) to voluntary exhaustion, followed by a second ride 12 to 15 hours later at 85% VO2peak to exhaustion. At baseline, mean VO2peak was 52.6 ± 10.3 mL/kg/minute. Subjects were randomized to receive sports drinks containing carbohydrate only (7.3%) or carbohydrate and protein (7.3% and 1.8% concentrations). Because the drinks were matched for carbohydrate content, the carbohydrate-only drink had 20% lower total energy content.

Every 15 minutes of exercise, the cyclists drank 1.8mL/kg body weight of assigned sports beverage, and they drank 10 mL/kg body weight immediately following exercise. Subjects were blinded to treatment beverage, and they repeated the same protocol seven to 14 days later with the other beverage.

In the first ride, at 75% VO2peak, the cyclists rode 29% longer with the carbohydrate-only plus protein drink than with the carbohydrate-only drink (106.3 ± 45.2 vs. 82.3 ± 32.6 minute; P <.05). In the second ride, at 85% VO2peak, the cyclists rode 40% longer with the carbohydrate-only plus protein beverage than with the carbohydrate-only beverage (43.6 ± 12.5 vs. 31.2 ± 8.7 minute).

Peak postexercise plasma creatine kinase (CK) levels, indicating muscle damage, were 83% lower after the carbohydrate-only plus protein trial than after the carbohydrate-only trial (216.3 ± 122.0 vs. 1318.1 ± 1935.6 U/L). Exercising levels of VO2, ventilation, heart rate, ratings of perceived exertion, blood glucose, or blood lactate were similar with both treatments.

The main study limitation is the inability to distinguish the effect of protein per se from that of added energy. The authors recommend further research to determine if these effects were the result of higher total energy content of the carbohydrate-only plus protein beverage or of specific protein-mediated mechanisms.

"Although we did not evaluate the impact of a carbohydrate-protein sports drink on every day athletes and weekend warriors, the fact that Accelerade significantly reduced muscle damage would be a great advantage because muscle soreness is a frequent post-exercise complaint," Dr. Saunders says.

The School of Kinesiology and Recreation Studies at James Madison University funded this study.

Sci Med Sports Exerc. 2004;36:1239-1243
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Old 09-01-04, 12:19 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by sorebutt
"This study provides further confirmation of the value of adding protein to a conventional carbohydrate electrolyte sports drink," lead author Michael J. Saunders, PhD, from James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia, says in a news release. "Our results suggest that athletes in all sports, including running, cycling, soccer, and tennis, where endurance and recovery are critical would benefit from a protein-containing sports drink such as Accelerade."
When authors endorse specific companies/products in their finding, I'm always a bit concerned regarding the validity of said findings. However, having stated that, I use both Accelerade and Endurox.
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Old 09-01-04, 12:25 PM
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Whoa..what a crap paper. Dr. Saunders needs to learn some math, his results are insignificant. Why I would reject this study if it came across my desk:

N=15, too low to be meaningful.

106.3+/- 45.2, 82.3 +/- 32.6 yet p<0.05 with n=15?? the error bars cross on this data, how can it be significant with only 15 people? This data fails the student T-test.
Also, the study did not control the diets of the riders tested.

I would like to know if these sports drink companies contribute to Madison's Kinesiology department.
 
Old 09-01-04, 12:40 PM
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Yeah, I'm always skeptical of scientific studies that endorse specific brand name products, that just smells a little fishy to me.
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Old 09-01-04, 06:51 PM
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There's an expert, Ric Stern, over in Training and Nutrition. Why don't you ask him? Seriously.
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Old 09-01-04, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Campbell
Wait a minute! I think we're onto something here. Hmmm, you burn fat when you're sleeping. Instead of getting up at 5:00 am to ride for two hours every day, in a vain attempt to lose weight, I can sleep late, take a nap in the afternoon and go to bed early thus giving myself more sleeping (fat burning) time. I like it!
From the movie, The Tao of Steve,

Rick : This is almost as ridiculous as your sleeping diet.
Dex : That time I lost 30 pounds.
Rick : You also lost your job.
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