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why do even Burley's cost so much?

Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

why do even Burley's cost so much?

Old 09-07-04, 06:35 PM
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boze
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why do even Burley's cost so much?

:: rhetorical question - i just came to vent ::

that latest friend i helped shop this weekend test rode a few Burley bikes: one called Sahalie and the other called McKenzie. both nice steel rides and attractive, but one was $1599 and the other was $1799!

it's like nobody wants to make a good value in a steel road bike! you tell anybody outside our world that you got a modest road bike with the low-end respectable component group and you spent $1700 after tax and they'd gasp for air! it's no wonder our girlfriends think we're crazy!

okay, so enough exclamation points. it's just been a rough summer of bike shopping for me. i'm starting now with the fourth different friend i'm guiding through the process - so that'll make five bikes total including the one i got - and there's just no way the LBSs around here are getting a single sale from any of these ppl. i'm not even blaming the stores, i'm just saying i can't take anybody there to buy with prices like that.

steel might be real, but the prices sure as heck aren't. unless you're okay with a Sora group and a clunky 520 frame on like a Brava or something you can't start shopping new unless you have $1200 minimum - even at Performance or something.

we all end up shopping online - either at a place like gvhbikes.com or eBay or craigslist or locally through the city paper or something.

[/rant]
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Old 09-07-04, 07:34 PM
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Maybe I can answer this. I'm from the same town where Burley, Co-Motion, and Bike Friday are made.

There is a lot of good beer in Oregon. A huge amount. There are also alot of hippies in Eugene. We are a veritable hive. Hippies eat well. Thus, we have a lot of good food, and alot of good beer. As such, we have developed a fondness for good food and beer, and our pub tabs tend to run high. And, well, you gotta pay the beer bill.

So there you go. Each time you buy one of the above marques, you're paying for a round of really good beer. Money well spent.
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Old 09-07-04, 07:49 PM
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I paid a high price for my Burley trailer... but its so much nicer than anything else I could find, its worth it. When it comes to bikes though, yeah.. its nearly impossible to find a decent bike (especially steel) thats not overpriced..
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Old 09-07-04, 07:52 PM
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I would check out the LBS again, it is the end of the year for models and in the local
Performance store they have some nice fuji's (steel) that are down a few hundred dollars.
I remember when we went looking for a Burley to truck the kids around. They were very
well made, but out of my price range.

a.c.
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Old 09-07-04, 08:48 PM
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Hate to change the subject...but my girlfriend has been looking for a road bike and I think the McKenzie is perfect for her being that her name is McKenzie!
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Old 09-07-04, 09:18 PM
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yeah, both the Burley's looked like really nice bikes - but if it was like $999 or something then _maybe i could talk somebody into it as a quality bike you can grow into. but at $1599 there's just no way.

she ended up getting one of those Legacy Pro's by Motobecane and she got it on eBay from a powerseller so it was $895 shipped for an off-brand Reynolds 853 steel frame with full Ultegra!

where's the sensible new 105 reynolds 631 bike for $900? i'd have sold five this summer myself and i don't even work at a bike shop! even the damned fuji roubaix pro is $1195...

okay so maybe i wasn't done ranting - what's it to ya?!

Last edited by boze; 09-09-04 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 09-08-04, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Jakey
its nearly impossible to find a decent bike (especially steel) thats not overpriced..
I disagree. Sure, you can go down to Wal-Mart and buy a rideable bike for $150, but you get what you pay for. The tolerances of every component on a cheap bike will be greater making the shifting sloppy. The cheaper bike uses heavier gauge material so the welds donít need to be as precise.

As a manufacturing engineer, I can tell you that costs are directly related to the quantity of products made and the precision of the components. Burley is a small shop that doesnít make a lot of bikes compared to Cannondale or Trek. Try buying a car or motorcycle from a small, non mass production shop and see how the price goes up!

Look at it another way; for the price of a decent used boat or a snowmobile, you can buy a bike of the same quality that the pros ride. Try that in any motor sport! Professional race cars and motorcycles cost as much as a nice house!

My office mate was shocked at the price we paid for our tandem, but she didnít think $20k was bad for a boat! Iíll have more fun on my bike than 90% of the boat owners out there and I pay a lot less up front and in maintenance.

A nice bike that gives you years of recreation is not overpriced at all!

-murray
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Old 09-08-04, 07:36 AM
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I love it, everyone wants everything. If you want built in the US you are going to have to pay for it, if you want lower prices it isn't coming from the US. All I hear every day is how Americans are loosing their jobs over seas and then how expensive everything is. You can't have both here people, if you want the US made product you ARE going to pay more for it because we pay our workers SOOOOO much more here than in other countries.

I work in the medical industry as an engineer in an OEM mfr plant for several very large medical electronics companies. Our competition is mainly in China and Japan and we can't compete for price with companies in China...it just isn't going to happen so we HAVE to build a better product to compete. If you want high quality fit and finish buy American, if you want cheap but still good quality buy from China. Just because it is made in China doesn't make it poor quality, the details is where the US product "should: shine.
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Old 09-08-04, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Grasschopper
All I hear every day is how Americans are loosing their jobs over seas and then how expensive everything is. You can't have both here people, if you want the US made product you ARE going to pay more for it because we pay our workers SOOOOO much more here than in other countries.
Yeah, people b**ch and moan about a company closing down a plant to make their products overseas, yet those same people are at Wal-Mart shopping for the cheapest stuff they can find

If people arenít willing to pay 6 times as much for products made here, why should companies be blasted for paying 1/6th* as much for overseas labor?!?

-murray

*Actual difference in wages our company pays to outsource IT programming to India.
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Old 09-08-04, 07:56 AM
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no offense murray, but c'mon man: wal-mart? that's your argument?

"you get what you pay for"??

nobody ever said that fancy bikes weren't better - but did you read all the posts? i'm just bitter that you can't get any new steel bikes other than some cheap 520 frame like a Brava or something for under $1100 pre tax.

my friend just passed up a NOS '03 Gunnar on eBay that went for $810. boats and snowmobiles notwithstanding, i don't think it's fair to say she'd get twice as much bike if she bought that Burley McKenzie for $1600. and speaking of '03 Gunnar Roadies, the LBS accross town has one in her size and wants $1300 for it down from $1700 because it's end of season (!).

and let me just say that i don't know what country the Gunnar frames are made in but that's still nearly a 62% price difference pre tax for the same bike. so this "buy american" angle is irrelevant.


her gf ended up with that Motobecane Legacy Pro for $860. did she get more than she paid for or is this only half as nice as the Burley Sahalie w/ 105 she test rode for $1800. again, it's not a US-made thing -- the bikes by the bigger brand names weren't any more competitive. Jamis and Fuji come close, but that's it.

i can see paying more for a burrito or a cup of coffee or even a bike just to show support for a local business or whatever. but we're looking at a 100% price difference here. like "buy this Reynolds 853 steel bike with Ultegra _and that '03 Gunnar for your girlfriend.. or you could get one bike for yourself from the LBS for the same price as both put together and it'll be a genuine Burley!"

if you ask me, i think they'll get "years of recreation" and pay half as much.

i'm not calling out US manufacturing either. GT, Specialized, Trek, Fuji, Giant.. heck even Bianchi's are made in Taiwan now right?

Last edited by boze; 09-08-04 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 09-08-04, 08:40 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by boze
i'm just bitter that you can't get any new steel bikes other than some cheap 520 frame like a Brava or something for under $1100 pre tax
Why do you consider the Bava cheap? Youíre asking for 105 and 853 for under a grand? Thatís like asking for a sports car for under $15k, it just costs too much for the components and materials.

Originally Posted by boze
and let me just say that i don't know what country the Gunnar frames are made in but that's still nearly a 62% price difference pre tax for the same bike. so this "buy american" angle is irrelevant.
Last time I heard, Gunnarís are made by Waterford in Waterford, WI. There are always going to be deals to had on eBay or at the end of season, but if you are paying retail, everyone needs their margin. Bike shops need their cut to stay in business.

I think I understand your point, but youíre looking at pretty high quality bikes and they just donít come cheap.

-murray
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Old 09-08-04, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by boze
:: rhetorical question -
steel might be real, but the prices sure as heck aren't. unless you're okay with a Sora group and a clunky 520 frame on like a Brava or something you can't start shopping new unless you have $1200 minimum - even at Performance or something.

[/rant]
Steel is more expensive because all the main manufacturers like Trek and Giant are into making hard alu frames for those with limited funds who think lighter is better. Unless you can afford carbon or ti, you're basically stuck buying a hard Trek 1000 like tens of thousands who did and are now selling them on Ebay for rock bottom prices.

If you want steel with good components, it's going to cost you. Why do you think all those custom made bike makers choose steel? There's something about the material that rivals high end Ti bikes.

HOWEVER. I don't consider my Bianchi Eros to be a bad bike because it doesn't come with 105. The frame is excellant, shifts very well and gives an excellant ride. Have ever ridden the Brava?? I have and it's not a bad bike but a little on the heavy side. It's ok. I would take the Brava over the Trek 1000 any day of the week. Unfortunately, the better components come at a price and it's usually starts at about $1,500.00.

You seem to think that unless the bike has Ultegra, it's not worth the time. I think you're wrong. I purchased a $350.00 dollar Jamis Aurora and it's a nice bike even though it has Sora components. Reynolds 520 is not bad and not much more heavier than the alu frame on a Trek 1000.
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Old 09-08-04, 10:14 AM
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Boze, check out www.jamisbikes.com. They make quality steel bikes that are affordale.
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Old 09-08-04, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Jakey
I paid a high price for my Burley trailer... but its so much nicer than anything else I could find, its worth it. When it comes to bikes though, yeah.. its nearly impossible to find a decent bike (especially steel) thats not overpriced..

How long do you think you will keep your bike? 2,3,5,10 years? Most people buy a bike and keep it a long time. Bikes are not replaced every 2-4 years like cars are yet most of the people who ***** about the high cost of a good bike drive a car that is way over priced. I rode my Serotta for 6 years without out an ounce of trouble and sold to a guy who has ridden it for 1.5 years also without an ounce of trouble. A mid to high end bike frame is hand assembled. A lugged steel in nearly every case is hand brazed that is why they are expensive.
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Old 09-08-04, 05:11 PM
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you guys are all right but you're missing my point.

i _own a lugged steel frame. i _did pay $1400. i also mentioned Jamis as one of the few companies who offered more competitive prices. but the bikes comparable to the one i got would have been $1800 to $2000 had i limited myself to the LBS.

i'm not asking for a great steel bike that's cheap. but there's a jump from the under-equipped Brava with heaviest steel frame and the cheapest component group. you go from that $600 to $800 range (Bianchi Brava, Jamis Aurora) and you skip right to $1200-$1300 with the Fuji Roubaix Pro and the Jamis Quest.

That Gunnar is a perfect example of how wack this is in terms of value. Same bike, both NOS, the eBay dude is a power-seller with 3000 positive feedbacks and a dedicated eBay bike store, and you can get that Gunnar for around $800 or you can buy it from my LBS for $1300 + tax.

name me one person on this board that would choose a 520 Jamis with Sora over that Gunnar because of LBS loyalty.

and it's _always like this. whatever bike you're shopping for, the LBS is _always the most expensive place to get it and it's not "a couple hundred bucks" which would be understandable. in the case of the Gunnar it's a $500 difference.

i'm left thinking that those nice bikes at the LBS are just for the folks who make so much money that they can by nice things under $3k pretty casually and not really be concerned whether they're getting the most for their money.

the ppl i'm helping shop have a variety of backgrounds but they're mostly 20 and 30 somethings with salaries in the 30-40k range who live in apartments and don't have leased BMWs or anything.

you don't have to tell them that a bike is something you keep for years. $1000 is already a lot of money, and on that level it's insulting to be charged $1300 for something that can make somebody money selling for $810.
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Old 09-08-04, 05:14 PM
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How about the Marin line? Portifino (although Sora equipped) is a very nice bike for under a G and the Argenta (which I am partial too as I own one) is nicely equipped for around a grand. Go to the Verona for the same frame and better components.
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Old 09-08-04, 05:38 PM
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yeah, and Marin comes uniquely close to being comparable in price if you can find one on clearance from REI as well.

i saw the Verona with a nice steel frame and carbon stays for like $870. i wish i'd had all these friends shopping through me then - i'd have made it fit one of them if it killed me!
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Old 09-08-04, 07:43 PM
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At my job I have seen the nice steel road bikes (and MTN too for that matter) fall to the side in favor of "affordable" aluminum frames. Truth is, that's what the market is demanding at large and so the manufacturers are trying to keep up.

I would love to see a resurgence of nice steel frames, I think they are a lot more asthetically pleasing as well as a nice ride. But until the riding/buying public puts a foot down I don't see us going back...
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Old 09-08-04, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by boze
...we all end up shopping online - either at a place like gvhbikes.com or eBay or craigslist or locally through the city paper or something.
No. Some of us are stupid enough to search out and commission small builders who are stupid enough to personally design and fabricate frames for each client one-at-a-time and charge fair market value for the time, materials, and a modest amount of margin to cover their operating costs and just enough profit to justify why they persist in doing something they love instead of outsourcing fabrication of generic frames to the low-cost, mass production houses in-country or overseas. So, in addition to Walmart, gvhbikes, Ebay, and Chucksbikes.com, you'll still be able to shell out some big bucks for an honest to goodness custom frame that you'll keep for the rest of your life instead of passing off for the latest and greatest every few years. Thus, over time, that $1.5k - $3k custom frame ends up being less expensive to own than the generic, mass-produced models that seem like a great buy, particularly when they are last year's over-production that an Etailer picked up when the distributor or brand owner decided to liquidate the left-over inventory. Of course, you need to be pretty committed to your frame material, frame size, and geometry to make this work. I'm old enough to know that my tastes have given way to what I know I like instead of what I'm supposed to like and that makes all the difference in the world.

In fact, if you'd really like to get ahead of the power curve you too can become a bicycle importer and offer up your own brand for your friends. It's not all that expensive to get started (less than the cost of a new car for an economic order quantity of frames in a range of sizes and colors) and you don't even have to know squat about bicycle design or manufacturing. Just tell your Asian business consultant whose frame designs you'd like to replicate and they'll line up the manufacturer and work out the particulars. And, best of all, you can find out just how much the big name brands who import actually pay for those frames and understand why, at least for them, it's cheaper to give a customer a new frame instead of paying someone else to fix even the most minor flaw. Yes, the cost basis for the imported frames is that cheap compared to something hand-built by domestic, micro-brew drinking labor in Oregon or anywhere else in the continental US.

Cost is relative and you get what you pay for. However, sometimes you get more than what you pay for and while in the short run it seems like a pretty good deal, somone in the supply chain got stuck holdling the bag when that happend. If it happens too often, the supply chain eventually dries up and your choices as a consumer are further reduced. Cheap Fast Food or Cheap Fast Bikes; same concept and same quality. It may not make you sick but it also may not be as good as you think it is, it's just as good as you've come to expect.

Sorry for venting on your vent but what goes around eventually comes around.

Last edited by livngood; 09-08-04 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 09-09-04, 08:06 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by boze
i'm left thinking that those nice bikes at the LBS are just for the folks who make so much money that they can by nice things under $3k pretty casually and not really be concerned whether they're getting the most for their money.
My last new bike is over 10 years old with a several hundred dollar upgrade 6 years ago. I have less than $2k total in a LeMond 853 steel frame with Ultegra components and a DA drive train. Itís a decent ride, but I think about a new bike all the time.

I most certainly donít take spending $1k+ ďcasuallyĒ! Per my earlier post, cycling is a relatively inexpensive activity compared to most other recreations. As I said, a used boat costs more than a pro caliber bike.

Why are there no inexpensive, good quality steel frames? Because the materials cost money and it takes a skilled craftsman to put it together! Why is this a difficult concept for you to grasp?

Originally Posted by boze
name me one person on this board that would choose a 520 Jamis with Sora over that Gunnar because of LBS loyalty
Certainly deals can be had over the internet, but a quick look at the Gunnar website shows the current Roadie model at over $900 for the frame and fork only. The eBay bike looks to be put together with out of date stuff (threaded headset, for example). I donít think itís reasonable to make this comparison. The typical novice thatís looking at an entry level bike needs the guidance of an LBS to help them select their bike and give them something to test ride.


Originally Posted by livngood
Some of us are stupid enough to search out and commission small builders who are stupid enough to personally design and fabricate frames for each client one-at-a-time and charge fair market value for the time, materials, and a modest amount of margin to cover their operating costs and just enough profit to justify why they persist in doing something they love instead of outsourcing fabrication of generic frames to the low-cost, mass production houses in-country or overseas.
Yeah, my wife is one of those stupid ones having bought a custom Waterford, though sheís never been more comfortable or been able to ride faster/longer on a bike. Definitely worth the price IMHO.

-murray
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Old 09-09-04, 08:45 AM
  #21  
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:: sigh ::

no. you misunderstand.

first: LivnGood - when i said "we all end up shopping online" i meant the five ppl (including myself) that i've helped shop this summer. the tone of your whole "some of us" thread was insulting as well.

custom builders offer a valuable service like other artisans, but it's _completely irrelevant to a discussion of decent steel bikes for under $1200 for reasons that you're smart enough to figure out on your own =)

and murray, LivNGood was trying to take the piss at _me dude - chill! custom waterfords built up for $2500 to $3500 are not germaine to this discussion.

finally:
yes the Gunnar has a threaded headset and it's still a way better bike for the money than a Jamis Aurora for $860 on sale at performance. you know this is true so stop trying to jerk my chain.

we all bring a lot of different experiences to the table, but everybody on this board would choose a NOS '03 Gunnar with an 853 frame and 105 over an '04 Jamis with a 520 frame and Sora that cost $50 more.

custom frames have nothing to do with this - nothing at all.

the only point i'm trying to make is that new steel bikes have a sweet spot for value that only begins at around $1200 to $1300 with modest bikes like the Jamis Quest, the Bianchi Imola and the Fuji Roubaix Pro (all made in Taiwan i believe).

i'm not saying a Brava has no value, and i'm not saying a Waterford is unfairly priced. what i am saying is that i and four different ppl i've helped this summer have learned enough to want a want a nice steel frame and a 105 group as their first good road bike and ultimately everybody chose to shop online because their money went a _lot further.

farther?
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Old 09-09-04, 09:15 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by boze
i'm not saying a Brava has no value, and i'm not saying a Waterford is unfairly priced. what i am saying is that i and four different ppl i've helped this summer have learned enough to want a want a nice steel frame and a 105 group as their first good road bike and ultimately everybody chose to shop online because their money went a _lot further.
Like I said, the typical novice gets value from the LBS while you and your friends apparently have enough knowledge to shop online. Certainly the Gunnar is a better value, but not if itís the wrong size. I agree, I would probably go with the Gunnar, but Iím 15 years beyond a novice.

Buying on eBay, you have to ask yourself how this guy is able to sell a complete bike for less than the price of a current frame and fork. eBay always carries some risk that you wonít have with an LBS.

Many here advocate starting out with a used or a previous model year bike. Shopping online extends your reach.

-murray
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Old 09-09-04, 09:30 AM
  #23  
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yeah, it's a tough situation. i mean 3 out of five of us bought new online - and i spent the most ($1410) ordering from gvhbikes.com, which was more satisfying for obvious reasons. for me things were complicated further by the fact that i wanted a 64cm frame and nobody locally carried a steel bike like that - almost nobody even _makes a steel bike like that really.

the last friend was the one who ended up with that Legacy Pro floor model for $895 shipped. she's gonna be in great shape and appreciate the comfort of that frame for years, and i doubt she'd have had much of a better experience on a $1600 Burley or a $1250 Bianchi Imola (both with 105) even if they _hadn't been so far apart price-wise.

and really there's no comparison. you can only compare the 853/Ultegra bike she got to the 520/Sora bikes because that's all you can do for $850 kinda money unless you shop creatively.
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Old 09-09-04, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by boze
no. you misunderstand.
No, you fail to appreciate how broad the brush is you're painting with or the false logic that some see in your arguments and comparisons. And, if it weren't so, you wouldn't have to keep telling the folks who offer different perspectives on your original message that we're all misunderstanding YOU.

when i said "we all end up shopping online" i meant the five ppl (including myself) that i've helped shop this summer.

Guess what, you and your four friends are no different from thousands of other buyers looking for that "killer deal" so even though what you thought you wrote was "me and the four people I've helped" (I put back the vowels, less guess work) your little group is representative of rest of the folks in your same demograhic. Oh, and by extension, it also applies to each subsequent price point in the market because there is also a group just like yours looking for a killer deal on an '04 $2,400 road bike with Ultegra components that found NOS '03 for $1,800 on line. Or, more near and dear to my heart, a killer deal on an '04 $3,600 tandem who found a NOS '02 model sitting in a bike shop that eventually takes a loss to sell it and swears they'll never stock another tandem again (which is why so few bike shops stock or sell premium quality tandems).

the tone of your whole "some of us" thread was insulting as well.

You seem to be easily insulted; that must really suck. Anyway, let's get back to the discussion at hand so I can explain why I have a hard time understanding why you don't quite get why a brand new '04 model bicycle from a small builder in Oregon costs more than a new old stock (NOS) '03 that no one bought last year when it was new. And why didn't it sell last year? Because buyers looking for a bargain bought cheaper bikes made off-shore or NOS '02 models that didn't sell in '02 that were being blown-out by Etailers or on Ebay. Imagine how the folks who purchased a new '03 Chevy Suburban in Jun '03 for $45k felt when GM began to blow-out the left-over '03's for 35k with Zero percent financing or and additional $1.5k cash back in Dec? And, of course, now that GM lowered the sales price to $35k, your chances of selling your slightly used '03 for anymore than $30k is pretty remote. So, how much does an '04 cost? About $45k. And who is buying them? Not nearly as many buyers but that's OK because GM lowered supply to match demand by cutting back production and laying off workers. No, not the workers in Mexico where most of the Suburbans are made, that factory is what allows the SUV models to meet their margins. Same economic model, just a different commodity.

...custom builders offer a valuable service like other artisans, but it's _completely irrelevant to a discussion of decent steel bikes for under $1200 for reasons that you're smart enough to figure out on your own

It's only irrelevant if you decide to frame the discussion in the most narrow context to suit your needs. Again, you continue to cling to a premise that the retail market is a bloated, high-profit enterprise that can't compete with the secondary, low-overhead etailers who make a living by blowing out the products that didn't sell last year and/or Asian imports that are produced for about ten cents (or less) on the dollar compared to a product made in the US, the UK, Germany, Italy or any other Western manufacturing centers. So, custom builders now find that they can no longer compete as a small time builder selling affordable custom frames and end up either: a) eliminating their lower cost models and concentrating on the high-end market; b) subcontracting part or all of their frame fabrication to one of a few a 3rd party vendors here in the US (e.g., Moots, Co-Motion, etc...) and hoping that either more volume or a higher price will off-set the added cost of outsourcing, c) outsourcing to an off-shore manufacturer for a "production model" to help bolster their margins so that they can still offer up a high-end custom, or d) getting consumed by a conglomerate (e.g., Merlin, etc.). Regardless, the killer deals impact the custom builders so it's not irrelevant.

and murray, LivNGood was trying to take the piss at _me dude - chill! custom waterfords built up for $2500 to $3500 are not germaine to this discussion.

See above. Waterfords, Serottas, Ericksons, Landsharks and other custom or semi-custom built bikes are definitely tied into this discussion but you have to step back from your original premise to see what I and others see as the slippery slope nature of your economic model and how those killer deals on bicycles play into the overall market. Material and labor costs rise, they don't fall. So, if consumers demand a lower price manufacturers must either automate (not likely given the capital investment required), sub-out domestically to a high-volume factory, or move production off-shore.

the only point i'm trying to make is that new steel bikes have a sweet spot for value that only begins at around $1200 to $1300 with modest bikes like the Jamis Quest, the Bianchi Imola and the Fuji Roubaix Pro (all made in Taiwan i believe).

Right, and it's no coincidence that major brands who source their frames from Asia and who fit them with similar components arrive at very similar price point. Similar models produced in Western manufacturing shops must sell for several hundred dollars more while yielding lower margins for their manufacturers and dealers (period).

... what i am saying is that i and four different ppl i've helped this summer have learned enough to want a want a nice steel frame and a 105 group as their first good road bike and ultimately everybody chose to shop online because their money went a _lot further.

And lots of people do the same thing at other price points so step back and look at the bigger picture and you'll quickly understand why this "best value" model strikes so many folks as being short-sighted and naive. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy you and your friends found bikes that fit within your budget. Perhaps Gunnar will continue to overproduce each year and serve that secondary market for many years to come. But, at the same time, I wouldn't bet on it.

Last edited by livngood; 09-09-04 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 09-09-04, 01:08 PM
  #25  
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Livngood well said!!!!
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