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Di2 Done Right

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Di2 Done Right

Old 09-22-10, 12:14 AM
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vantassell
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Di2 Done Right

I know this is implemented on a MTB, but hopefully Shimano talks to Fairwheel and mods Di2 accordingly

Link HERE
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Old 09-22-10, 12:31 AM
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Ok, I thought that this was going to be another topic bashing the Di2 for being overly expensive, but that is truly brilliant. This is the perfect next step after the flawless shifting of Di2 was produced
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Old 09-22-10, 01:08 AM
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ifI predicted this development several months ago, right here on BF road. It was just obvious that if you're going to electronic/computer-actuated shifting, you let the computer figure out what your best upshift/downshift algorithm is. If Shimano buys it, which they will, electronic shifting will obliviate manual shifting, except for "classicists" who also like old-fashioned manual-transmission cars. This new system is going to take over the Grand Tours. Sorry Red. (I have Red, I love it, technology marches on.)

It is very interesting that the first Di2 major improvement move occurred in MTBing. MTBing is more innovative than road-biking. Road-biking is regulated by control freak dinosaurs. Like, you can't make handlebars that are TOO aerodynamic. It's not a matter of equalizing things so the best athlete wins. We know that the team that has the bucks to hire the best GC guys, and domestique supporting staff wins. Why not reward and encourage the best engineers? What do the organizers have against engineering genius? They don't like engineering genius. Riders, on the other hand, love it.

If a super aerobar is developed, do riders without it say, "That's unfair, it must be banned?" No they say, "It's unfair if I don't have one, I want one. It's fair if I can get one too."
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Old 09-22-10, 01:31 AM
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Yeah, the MTB community is a little more innovative. Most of the worthwhile DIY stuff i've seen is from MTB.

I think is says more about Fair Wheel Bicycles than anything else. Between hub reviews and this, color me impressed.
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Old 09-22-10, 01:42 AM
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A solution looking for a problem.
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Old 09-22-10, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sfrider View Post
A refinement of a solution looking for a problem.
fify

I actually think it's a great idea if one buys into electronic shifting. Very simple to operate.
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Old 09-22-10, 04:08 AM
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Its good but i'll be more impressed when they hook it up to a power meter and you just select casual or race mode and it adjusts your cadence and torque to a preselected window. Why have shifters at all?
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Old 09-22-10, 05:44 AM
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Perfect.
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Old 09-22-10, 05:51 AM
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I am sticking (pardon the expression) with my old fashioned manual shifting, both for my car and my bike.
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Old 09-22-10, 05:53 AM
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Depends what you mean by "Perfect" I guess. How about stepless (variomatic cones) and automatic? Just maintain your cadence and let your SRM crank decide your gearing.
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Old 09-22-10, 06:01 AM
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i dont even like the idea of electronic shifting, but i have to admit, this is a nice bit of innovation, seems very logical.
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Old 09-22-10, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rollin View Post
Depends what you mean by "Perfect" I guess. How about stepless (variomatic cones) and automatic? Just maintain your cadence and let your SRM crank decide your gearing.
Would need an override (dial-a-cadence). Sometimes I want to spin up in anticipation of a pack surge or downshift as I go into a corner (where I won't be pedaling and can't shift). Sometimes I want to upshift two cogs and stand up to loosen and stretch the legs. Sometimes I want to do low-cadence intervals. Sometimes I want to do high-cadence intervals. Sometimes I want to sprint in the same gear as my training partners.
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Old 09-22-10, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Eclectus View Post
ifI predicted this development several months ago, right here on BF road.
Not exactly an original thought. Shimano was asked about why Di2 didn't have sequential shifting when it first came out. Wayne Stetina said at the time that they rejected it for the first iteration of Di2 because they wanted to to keep it as close to cable shifting as possible to increase acceptance. But it's clearly on their radar screen.

It's a simple programming matter. My bet is that in the not distant future, the current Di2 will be marketed at the Ultegra level/price point, with just some cosmetic changes, and there will be a new Di2 with some refinements, including an option for sequential shifting, and possibly wireless.
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Old 09-22-10, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rollin View Post
Depends what you mean by "Perfect" I guess. How about stepless (variomatic cones) and automatic? Just maintain your cadence and let your SRM crank decide your gearing.
Add a power meter, and then you could really have something, so shifts could be based upon cadence and torque. You'd still want an overide as WR suggests.

You could set it up like a manual/ automatic in a car. One mode for automatic, and one mode for manual, like a tiptronic.
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Old 09-22-10, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Add a power meter, and then you could really have something, so shifts could be based upon cadence and torque. You'd still want an overide as WR suggests.

You could set it up like a manual/ automatic in a car. One mode for automatic, and one mode for manual, like a tiptronic.
That's why I suggested the SRM.

I like the overdrive idea.

I drove a neighbour's CVT Nissan recently and it was tres weird.

But hey I thought 6 speed was a solution without a problem when it first came out.
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Old 09-22-10, 07:59 AM
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This mtn bike brain isn't so much the computer telling you what gear you "need" to be in, as you can still upshift/downshift whenever you want, but it eliminates the redundant gears so that you're always in the most efficient ratio for that particular upshift/downshift.

Did that make any sense?
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Old 09-22-10, 08:16 AM
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We get that. We're just speculating where next/ eventually
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Old 09-22-10, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Would need an override (dial-a-cadence). Sometimes I want to spin up in anticipation of a pack surge or downshift as I go into a corner (where I won't be pedaling and can't shift). Sometimes I want to upshift two cogs and stand up to loosen and stretch the legs. Sometimes I want to do low-cadence intervals. Sometimes I want to do high-cadence intervals. Sometimes I want to sprint in the same gear as my training partners.
Yep, just like manual transmission on a car. You don't race with an automatic because it removes a lot of options.
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Old 09-22-10, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rollin View Post
That's why I suggested the SRM.

I like the overdrive idea.

I drove a neighbour's CVT Nissan recently and it was tres weird.

But hey I thought 6 speed was a solution without a problem when it first came out.
Same here (regarding 6-spd). Then I started realizing how narrow the torque curve was for a lot of engines. Then I got an Acura TSX, and it all makes perfect sense now. Not much power in the car, but if I keep it in the 4K-7K range, it's pretty happy. Plus, the iVTEC boost is pretty obvious when you hit about 6K rpm. Narrower gearing is helpful there.

Plus, it's just nice shifting.

Regarding CVT, I test-drove one of the first Audi A4 1.8T CVT cars in town. Holy crap that was fun. Not the fastest car in the world, but pretty quick. The engine has a very pointy torque curve where the turbo is just piling on the pressure. With the accelerator mashed, the CVT gets the engine to that sweet-spot RPM and just leaves it there. So you've got this unnerving turbo-induced acceleration that just never ends. With geared transmissions, you sweep through that zone, then shift, so it was quite a change just to get to the fun part and stay there. It's like never-ending orgasm.

What were we talking about again?
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Old 09-22-10, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
I am sticking (pardon the expression) with my old fashioned manual shifting, both for my car and my bike.
Are those downtube friction shifters? Or the kind where you dismount and move the chain by hand?
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Old 09-22-10, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by sfrider View Post
A solution looking for a problem.
yuup

MTB'ing industry, although crafty, also has a bigger graveyard of innovations.
But, it's cool and bling sells.
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Old 09-22-10, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Would need an override (dial-a-cadence). Sometimes I want to spin up in anticipation of a pack surge or downshift as I go into a corner (where I won't be pedaling and can't shift). Sometimes I want to upshift two cogs and stand up to loosen and stretch the legs. Sometimes I want to do low-cadence intervals. Sometimes I want to do high-cadence intervals. Sometimes I want to sprint in the same gear as my training partners.
Well explained.

How about auto brakes that'll apply a touch of rear brake to slow you down in a corner if slip is detected. I dont think I'd be brave enough to go at a speed to encounter that. Or brakes that apply themselves a tiny amount during rain to keep rain water off the rim? Or when sensors detect emergency brakes being applied, they automatically apply the greatest braking pressure to stop the bike without skidding?

Actually, either I'm doubtful that will happen, or I'd be gutless to buy a bike with such a system.
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Old 09-22-10, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mustang1 View Post
Well explained.

How about auto brakes that'll apply a touch of rear brake to slow you down in a corner if slip is detected. I dont think I'd be brave enough to go at a speed to encounter that. Or brakes that apply themselves a tiny amount during rain to keep rain water off the rim? Or when sensors detect emergency brakes being applied, they automatically apply the greatest braking pressure to stop the bike without skidding?

Actually, either I'm doubtful that will happen, or I'd be gutless to buy a bike with such a system.
The added weight, cost, and complexity for bicycle ABS makes it pretty unlikely.
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Old 09-22-10, 10:07 AM
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So, you don't know if the FD or RD is going to do the shifting, correct?

The brain decides?

The FD is the tight side of the chain, though...
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Old 09-22-10, 11:04 AM
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I do like 6-speed transmissions. The concept of narrow gearing mated to the sweet torque spot is actually old. At least in truck applications. 350 hp diesels (vs a 400 hp cayenne for example) have been pulling 30+ tons and getting to highway speeds because of close gearing (9-14 speeds).

Wireless can be hacked and prone to interference. Wire is light. Maybe CVT's have changed, but the first application in the Subaru Justy was not that impressive. Unless my legs can't do it anymore, I will always prefer manual transmissions.

If I read the article correctly, it looks like the trail mode puts it back to manual shifting just like a regular Di2 with no FD.

And with everything going light, kevlar-ized and carbon-ized, is this a precursor to electronic internal hub applications?
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