"Toe pointing"= bad technique?
 

While getting fitted for my new Secteur, it was pointed out to me that I point my toes downward on the power stroke when pedaling. The LBS manager said I should try to keep my foot flat over the top and through the power stroke, without dropping my heel. This is apparently more efficient and generates more power. Anyone familiar with this "style," and why it might be bad technique? Any thoughts from the BF experts?

I guess the LBS manager has never watched the TDF or any other pro race on TV. It's quite common use a 2-3cm rise of the heel all the way around the pedal stroke. Some riders still use an ankling motion (like Lance), but many do not. It's been proven that ankling is of no value, at least according to fitting experts like Andy Pruitt.

An extreme toes down position would not be wise and might indicate a saddle that's too high, forcing the heel to rise excessively, at the bottom of the stroke.

A rough quideline would be to position the foot horizontal at the bottom of the stroke, with the leg fully extended. From that position, it only takes a 2-3cm rise of the heel to create the commonly recommended 30 degree bend at the knee, during normal pedaling.

John Howard recommended I keep on the balls of my foot most/all the time. I think he knows something about going fast. Do whatever is comfortable and gives you the most power and efficiency. Definitely pedal how you normally pedal during a fit, that's the point of it. Even dropping your heel a centimeter can dramatically affect fit. Power meter helps. Or you could just ask these guys.

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/fi...cancellara.jpg
http://www.composedvolcano.com/wp/wp...dor_astana.jpg
http://www.bikenews.it/2009/TOUR%20D...o%20Nibali.jpg

'Digging', as it used to be called was seen rarely in Pro riders, BITD. But it certainly was never very common.
Occasionally many riders would break into a 'diging' style under hard efforts.
Much of that was due to the shoes of the day. Flexible soles. If the sole flexibles a bit the tendency is to bring the foot plane more vertical and drive the power thru the toe area... compensation for the sole flex.
as shoes became more rigid in the sole, diggin became less obvious.
'seems' I remember reading some studies in the lat 70's and early 80's which concluded that a more flat style was more effective in power trasnmission. But I don;t have those ref. or actual info, so it's just a remembrance, prolly of questionable worth.
'Diggin' is very intimately related to 'position'/fit, and can be a direct symptom of prior less than optimum fit.
I wouldn;t be making big changes, which could cause muscle and joint issues; but maybe try to slowly get to a more 'flat' neutral pedal stroke.
I never recommend doing changes of more that 5mm in saddle height changes over a period of 80-100 miles of riding the change. Then if all OK, make another incremental change.
Saddle height affects fore/aft, so that needs addressing at the same time.
Digging' style can also be prompted by a more forward saddle position... Fore/aft changes of over 3mm at a time are also a bit much, so go easy on this also.
Cleat with Ball of Foot well in front of Pedal Spindle can also contribute to 'digging' (depending on saddle position...)

good luck on the "fit'
often a large move, to what eventually would be a good position, proves unsuccessfully because the 'change' is so radical from the old position. Better is to determine where you eventually want to be, and then move to that position in smaller, manageable increments from the old position.

Maybe this is your point, but each of those guys seems to have their power foot more or less horizontal. The rising foot is very pointed, tho.

Thanks for the replies.

I seem to recall some pros (maybe Lemond?) recommending "ankling", i.e. dropping the heel, as a way to increase power during climbing, but the toe pointing must come naturally to me. Saddle height/position is not the issue, at least not at this point. Could be due to my extremely tight hamstrings, I suppose.

Cuz they are pulling up.

As usual...great advice.

Doubtful. At least not significantly. It's probably because that's a natural motion, close to how you start your recovery from pushing off a foot while running.

This is how they set the saddle height for me, with my heel on the pedal at the 6 o'clock position.

Heres a good article on "ankling" . A slight point transistioning from the downstroke to the upstroke allows for a push motion.

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2009/...troke-ankling/

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=177770


http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=177771http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=177773

Could it be the issue of cleat positioning? I have the toes pointed slightly downward. Definitely more so than Cancellara (if you look at his power foot on the above photo). It seems to me that his cleats are located somewhat more to the back of the shoes.

Thanks for the great link!

Ditto.

This is very dependent on cleat position with respect to the cleats sideways position on the shoe. If your cleats force a stance that is too narrow on the pedals you will tend to point your toes at the bottom of the pedal stroke. This is because as you point your toes you bring in to play your ankle joint and foot for sideways flexibility where as when you drop your heel you effectively lock your ankle joint and foot. Pointing your toes at the bottom of the stroke is a sign your knees are not allowed to bend at their chosen stance width so if you find your heels wont drop even when your seat is set relatively low, it is likely that you need greater stance width.

Not many people play with q adjustment and dont understand what a huge difference it can make. Im only mentioning it here because its one of the many reasons why a cyclist might point their toes.

I was told exactly the same thing during my fitting today. They adjusted the seatpost down slightly and it seemed to resolve most of the pointing I was doing. Funny thing is that I've noticed after 15-20 miles on my SS, I get cramps in my calves (from pointing my toes) and have to consciously heel down to make them go away. so maybe there is something to it...

Anyone trying to tell you that a particular pedaling technique (such as ankling) will improve your power or "efficiency" (the most-abused word in cycling) in any meaningful way is selling you snake oil. Pedaling is such a prescribed and constrained motion that the most important thing you can do is make sure that your cleat position is as close to ideal as possible for your particular body and fit. Changing your habits when it comes to keeping your foot flat or pointed makes more sense for avoiding injury or cramps than improving power. When it comes to power, saddle fore/aft, saddle height and hip angle matter a lot more than ankle flex possibly could.

I think a good fit is inherent which would include cleat position. Also I think "ankling" as its defined really happens naturally when you concentrate on applying power to the bottom and upstoke, your ankle will raise.

Each person's body mechanics are slightly different. Even if one slight change might be more efficient for one person, it might not be for another. Just do what comes naturally and don't worry about it.

Your spot on Hao (hey we agree on something..)

Those pics are on the up stroke.

When I was training for my century my "coach" told me that pointing the toe used more leg muscles and caused you to tire quicker. He also stated that you werent utilizing your quads and hamstring efficiently. With a more horizontal stroke you utilize more of the quad and hammy.

That's what I was told....I have noticed that when I tire...I tend to point my toes, almost like flooring it when youre gass light comes on. I should actually be keeping my foot flat.

Anquetil used to pedal toes down IIRC. Apparently it didn't impair his performance...

I think that fore/aft cleat position has a lot to do with whether you "ankle" or keep a more fixed ankle position, or toe-point. If you move the cleat a bit more forward, you will reduce your tendency to toe-point, and will naturally "ankle" just a bit more. And conversely, if you move your cleat more rearward on the shoe, you will ankle a bit less.

theres another "toe" thread today.

Two word aswer: Jacques Anquetil

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