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fear of falling

Old 12-05-10, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk
I have a slightly different take on this - I think the best way to reduce fear is to increase confidence and I don't think confidence is the same as guts or bravado. Instead I think the best way to increase confidence is to increase skill.

Many riders discount the skill needed to ride a bike well. We've all seen the guy who looks so centered and balanced on the bike. Thus guy has little trouble with going fast or with avoiding a pile up in the group and this isn't luck but instead it's a combination of skills that he has learned - bike handling, timing, reading of the way the group moves down the road, reading the way traffic moves..........etc. And we've also seen the opposite - the guy who is always in the area when **** happens. The guy who gets caught in the pile up, the one who gets the flat on the shoulder or the one who runs wide on the downhill corner and has to lockup the brakes to avoid going off. This is not bad luck most of the time but its lack of skill.

If you were to find a safe area and practice various skills on a routine basis your overall skill level will go up and your worry level will go down. Since you are having fears of going too fast on descents I would practice counter-steering techniques. If you counter-steer properly you will be in a better and more balanced position when going fast around corners and it will not require that you take more risks. IMO you can go faster by improving skills without being more brave.

I think many folks treat bikes as exercise machines that happen to move. The best riders are not only fit but they have the skill to pilot the bike in all kinds of conditions and these skills need to be developed and built over time.

I hope that helps.

Dave
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Old 12-05-10, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
I ride slow on straight roads.
on purpose or on accident?
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Old 12-05-10, 11:43 AM
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WRT OP: Read some stuff about descending, then go out and give it a shot. I agree with everyone that what you need to increase your confidence is more skill, and what better way to get that skill than reading some tips and tricks and then putting it into action.
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Old 12-05-10, 01:09 PM
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Thanks all, these are helpful thoughts.

I did get a pair of Conti 4-season tires after I fell, and those help a bit though I still take it slow on downhills where I can't see around the corner. I figure it's worth taking an extra minute on a downhill vs. being out of commission for a week or two following a crash.

The weird thing is that I thought the anxiety would subside after a couple of weeks / a few hundred miles. A couple thousand miles and a few months later though I still get nervous. Maybe things will just stay that way.

Anyway, thanks for the replies.
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Old 12-05-10, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by brianappleby
wtf does picking up bottles have to do with cornering?
It has everything to do with cornering. It's a basic drill that you can use to practice ur balance side to side. Since most cornering is done not by turning your wheel, but by the angle of your weight side to side, it gives you practice of how to stay upright and not let the bike wash out under you
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Old 12-05-10, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by tmonk
on purpose or on accident?
o l d
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Old 12-05-10, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk
I have a slightly different take on this - I think the best way to reduce fear is to increase confidence and I don't think confidence is the same as guts or bravado. Instead I think the best way to increase confidence is to increase skill.

Many riders discount the skill needed to ride a bike well. We've all seen the guy who looks so centered and balanced on the bike. Thus guy has little trouble with going fast or with avoiding a pile up in the group and this isn't luck but instead it's a combination of skills that he has learned - bike handling, timing, reading of the way the group moves down the road, reading the way traffic moves..........etc. And we've also seen the opposite - the guy who is always in the area when **** happens. The guy who gets caught in the pile up, the one who gets the flat on the shoulder or the one who runs wide on the downhill corner and has to lockup the brakes to avoid going off. This is not bad luck most of the time but its lack of skill.

If you were to find a safe area and practice various skills on a routine basis your overall skill level will go up and your worry level will go down. Since you are having fears of going too fast on descents I would practice counter-steering techniques. If you counter-steer properly you will be in a better and more balanced position when going fast around corners and it will not require that you take more risks. IMO you can go faster by improving skills without being more brave.

I think many folks treat bikes as exercise machines that happen to move. The best riders are not only fit but they have the skill to pilot the bike in all kinds of conditions and these skills need to be developed and built over time.

I hope that helps.

Dave

Kudos to you Dave, this is a great observation. For instance, take an accomplished triathlete and have them run through a CX course, or even a local Crit race for that matter, and see what happens. Odds are, it wont be pretty. You should spend as much time on your handling skills as you do training for climbs and such
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Old 12-05-10, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mtalinm
ever since crashing a couple months back, I find myself slowing way down for corners and riding my (back) brakes down big hills.

it sucks because of course part of the fun of cycling is going fast. but I've developed this somewhat irrational fear of falling.

any tips on getting over the anxiety?
I ride around Central Ma. I still ride the rear brake coming down Mile Hill Rd. along Mt Wachusett, the cross winds where the road opens are completely unpredictable.

September I crashed really hard on a group Century, caught my front wheel in the RR crossing and hit the deck, ended up in the ER with a mild concuscion and some serious road rash.
Lesson learned.
Except over the past few months I thought I had it figured out until I caught the tracks again on today's ride, I don't know how I managed to stay upright but I did.

Time and more riding will relieve the anxiety. But you still need to ride smart.
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Old 12-05-10, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by cycleWV_23
Kudos to you Dave, this is a great observation. For instance, take an accomplished triathlete and have them run through a CX course, or even a local Crit race for that matter, and see what happens. Odds are, it wont be pretty. You should spend as much time on your handling skills as you do training for climbs and such
Thanks - You know it's always seemed odd to me. There are countless places to go and talk about how to make your bike lighter/stiffer/faster/more aero/cooler but few to none where you can talk about the proper use of these things. In my 30 years in the bike biz I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard anyone talk about how to properly corner or descend - there will be countless conversations about 'what bike corners the fastest?' but almost nothing about how to take the bike you've got and make it rail around corners. There are plenty of online conversations about increasing fitness and that is of course valuable but having a strong motor only to fall behind when you get to the turn would seem to be reason enough to learn how to ride well. It takes great skill to corner or descend or even just pedal well and if the rider is low on skill it won't matter how light the carbon bottle cages are.

I haven't spent much time on this forum and feel pretty new here so I have to ask - do people ever talk about how to use the bikes properly? Any threads on countersteering or picking the proper line on a curvy descent? Anything on proper threshold braking techniques or how to spin the pedals most efficiently?

I know it's much more fun and maybe even easier to talk about the equipment than it is how to use it but if you take a skilled rider and put him on a heavy and crappy bike he will shuck the unskilled guy on the new wonder bike. If you then put the skilled rider on the top shelf bike you have a real contender. Think of how LeMond or Sean Kelly look descending and then compare that to Thomas Voelkler or Eric Rassmussen and you will get my point.

Would anyone like to talk about this stuff? I've found over the years that one of the true pleasures of riding is getting better at all aspects of it - it's really fun to be able to shuck your buddies on that twisty downhill or sharp corner.

Thanks again,

Dave
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Old 12-05-10, 07:22 PM
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Old 12-05-10, 07:25 PM
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perhaps we could get a "sticky" started thats all about handling tips?!?!? This isnt so much about descending, but some awesome tips for cornering, group rides, etc...I regularly run through some of these with friends out in open fields and things

https://pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5614
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Old 12-06-10, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk
Thanks - You know it's always seemed odd to me. There are countless places to go and talk about how to make your bike lighter/stiffer/faster/more aero/cooler but few to none where you can talk about the proper use of these things. In my 30 years in the bike biz I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard anyone talk about how to properly corner or descend - there will be countless conversations about 'what bike corners the fastest?' but almost nothing about how to take the bike you've got and make it rail around corners. There are plenty of online conversations about increasing fitness and that is of course valuable but having a strong motor only to fall behind when you get to the turn would seem to be reason enough to learn how to ride well. It takes great skill to corner or descend or even just pedal well and if the rider is low on skill it won't matter how light the carbon bottle cages are.

I haven't spent much time on this forum and feel pretty new here so I have to ask - do people ever talk about how to use the bikes properly? Any threads on countersteering or picking the proper line on a curvy descent? Anything on proper threshold braking techniques or how to spin the pedals most efficiently?

I know it's much more fun and maybe even easier to talk about the equipment than it is how to use it but if you take a skilled rider and put him on a heavy and crappy bike he will shuck the unskilled guy on the new wonder bike. If you then put the skilled rider on the top shelf bike you have a real contender. Think of how LeMond or Sean Kelly look descending and then compare that to Thomas Voelkler or Eric Rassmussen and you will get my point.

Would anyone like to talk about this stuff? I've found over the years that one of the true pleasures of riding is getting better at all aspects of it - it's really fun to be able to shuck your buddies on that twisty downhill or sharp corner.

Thanks again,

Dave

I agree. You've got to go to the racing sub-forum to get people talking about actually riding their bikes. But everyone doesn't race, so here you go:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...escending-Fear

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...8205-Cornering
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Old 12-06-10, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BarryJo
I ride around Central Ma. I still ride the rear brake coming down Mile Hill Rd. along Mt Wachusett, the cross winds where the road opens are completely unpredictable.

September I crashed really hard on a group Century, caught my front wheel in the RR crossing and hit the deck, ended up in the ER with a mild concuscion and some serious road rash.
Lesson learned.
Except over the past few months I thought I had it figured out until I caught the tracks again on today's ride, I don't know how I managed to stay upright but I did.

Time and more riding will relieve the anxiety. But you still need to ride smart.
Rail tracks in the wet are the pits. I know all the principles and generally practise them. But I came a beauty on some slightly angled tracks about midnight on a long ride. I got away with a hand injury, but I have been ultra-cautious ever since on wet rail lines.

You can have all the skills in the world, but you might not have it all quite together when the real emergency happens.

Personally, I think mountain bike riding can do a LOT to help improve pre-emptive on-road riding skills, line judgment, and reactions, as well as recovery. I suppose cross riding can do the same, but I've not tried it.
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Old 12-06-10, 10:35 AM
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Old 12-06-10, 11:12 AM
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I went on a ride with lots of wet leaves the other week. I was cornering like a complete sissy.

It's the offseason though, so that's allowed. Or at least, there are less other people on the road to see me acting like a wuss.
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Old 12-06-10, 11:16 AM
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The thought of my family sticks to my head when going downhill and keeps me at a reasonable speed. More concenened with how fast I get up than down.
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Old 12-06-10, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk
I haven't spent much time on this forum and feel pretty new here so I have to ask - do people ever talk about how to use the bikes properly? Any threads on countersteering or picking the proper line on a curvy descent? Anything on proper threshold braking techniques or how to spin the pedals most efficiently?
Yes ... but they're rare next to the "cult of caad" type of threads.
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Old 12-06-10, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Genaro
The thought of my family sticks to my head when going downhill and keeps me at a reasonable speed. More concenened with how fast I get up than down.
I completely understand. I take fewer risks than I did when I was younger if for no other reason because if I don't turn on the lights in the shop in the morning I don't get paid and it's a downhill spiral from there. Which is why I focus as much on handing and technique as I do on fitness. Increasing skill with decrease risk and you enjoy it all the more. I don't go slower around corners and downhills than I used to - I go around them better with lower risk and it's even more fun to be mastering the techniques.

Does that make sense?

Dave
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Old 12-06-10, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Kirk
We've all seen the guy who looks so centered and balanced on the bike. Thus guy has little trouble with going fast or with avoiding a pile up in the group and this isn't luck but instead it's a combination of skills that he has learned - bike handling, timing, reading of the way the group moves down the road, reading the way traffic moves..........etc.
The other day I was climbing a hill that I find a bit scary to descend. I was on a straight section a couple hundred yards or so in length when a rider came around the corner in front of me. As he came out of his turn he almost instantly sat up in the saddle while grabbing his water bottle in one smooth motion. He rode no hands while calmly sipping a drink. Just as I thought he was going to fly off the road no handed, as smooth as ever he leaned forward and slid the water bottle in as he leaned into the next turn. He had to be going well over 30 mph during all of this.

Maybe you all could do that in your sleep, but I was impressed. I learned then just how much confidence and skill I have to gain, and that I want to go see a professional road race in person, watching it on TV just isn't the same (and I'm guessing this guy wasn't even close to professional).
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Old 12-06-10, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mtalinm
The weird thing is that I thought the anxiety would subside after a couple of weeks / a few hundred miles. A couple thousand miles and a few months later though I still get nervous. Maybe things will just stay that way.
When fears aren't rational and time from the event doesn't help, it's time to talk with a professional. The source may be something else.
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Old 12-06-10, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by vantassell
Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
lol, I think he meant EMPTY bottles...
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Old 12-06-10, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jaredcasper
The other day I was climbing a hill that I find a bit scary to descend. I was on a straight section a couple hundred yards or so in length when a rider came around the corner in front of me. As he came out of his turn he almost instantly sat up in the saddle while grabbing his water bottle in one smooth motion. He rode no hands while calmly sipping a drink. Just as I thought he was going to fly off the road no handed, as smooth as ever he leaned forward and slid the water bottle in as he leaned into the next turn. He had to be going well over 30 mph during all of this.

Maybe you all could do that in your sleep, but I was impressed. I learned then just how much confidence and skill I have to gain, and that I want to go see a professional road race in person, watching it on TV just isn't the same (and I'm guessing this guy wasn't even close to professional).
Watching someone with great skill make it all look easy kicks ass doesn't it?

The tough part, IMO, about learning new skills is finding a source of accurate information. There are few 'experts' out there and a lot of well meaning folks out there who give meaning the the phrase 'blind leading the blind'. Many people, like the OP'r, would benefit from improving their skills (who wouldn't?) but don't know where to turn and most often hear things like 'you need to man up" or 'go big or go home' machismo type stuff. Being more brave (foolish?) will rarely end up in building skill and trying harder (while doing the same thing) is just a path to frustration.

I think it would be cool to have a place where one could talk about techniques and the drills needed to practice them that would have firm moderation to keep out the 'don't be a puss' kind of responses. I'm a cyclist but have done little teaching of cycling skills - on the other hand I've been snowboarding for 30 years and am a Level III AASI snowboard instructor and have learned that giving people the skills first will allow them to really progress and not get stuck in a rut. Cycling has traditionally been different - you are a kid with training wheels and you have them removed and then most all of the energy is geared toward being able to push harder and faster on the pedals and the handling stays at that 'just removed the training wheels' level. Take a look at a cat 5 road race and how many of the folks look like they are going to take each other down just riding along for an easy visual.

Just thinking aloud.

Dave
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Old 12-06-10, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jaredcasper
The other day I was climbing a hill that I find a bit scary to descend. I was on a straight section a couple hundred yards or so in length when a rider came around the corner in front of me. As he came out of his turn he almost instantly sat up in the saddle while grabbing his water bottle in one smooth motion. He rode no hands while calmly sipping a drink. Just as I thought he was going to fly off the road no handed, as smooth as ever he leaned forward and slid the water bottle in as he leaned into the next turn. He had to be going well over 30 mph during all of this.

Maybe you all could do that in your sleep, but I was impressed. I learned then just how much confidence and skill I have to gain, and that I want to go see a professional road race in person, watching it on TV just isn't the same (and I'm guessing this guy wasn't even close to professional).

Ill say this....say I go out and ride 6 days in a given week....I'll see something that someone else does on a bike that impresses the hell out of me on at least 4 of those days!
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Old 12-06-10, 01:54 PM
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I don't think there's any cyclist who's never fallen before. I'll make an example of MMA. The great russian Fedor Emelianenko had a perfect fighting record. Well, he lost his last fight. And during his press conference he said: "You need to fall in order to get up. "

Well, I've fell and some of my falls have been pretty hard. The first one is always the most difficult one. So consider it as an experience behind your back, and ride on. Just don't think about it, as it already happened to you. That's how I look at it.
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Old 12-06-10, 02:40 PM
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Time and practice. I had a pretty bad crash this spring and it really effected me for a few months. It wasn't pretty on a road bike and my motorcycle. I am still nervous and slow way down on some corners. Specially the one where I lost the front.

What really helped is looking through the turns (harder said then done), weighting outside peg (basically me weight is on it with ass off the saddle), shifting upper body to the inside of the turn (shoulders pointing in to the turn, head turned to look through the turn). As the result you get a better feel for what the bike is doing, decrease lean angle. This increases the amount of traction available for the tires. Relax your arms. You don't want a tight grip on your handle bars. This can provide un-needed input.

I know this is on motorcycle but really a lot of it transfers to road bikes descending at speed.
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