patentcad

I got it from Ray Bradbury. Didn't know he got it from Walt Whitman.

Kimmo

I'll take Bradbury over Whitman any day

surgeonstone

Oh God, give me a break...pulease.

patentcad

Why do you hate America?

Oh wait, you're an Aussie.

Never mind.

lohump

Any conjectures on what Campy is going to charge for this stuff? It'll be atmospheric in my opinion.

Brian Ratliff

1+

As my boss always says: First guy down the path... is the guy with the arrows sticking out of his chest.

I'm just waiting till the time these groups have a setting built in so one's cassette choice isn't so restricted. I'm tired of being forced to adhere to one company's standards over another. Now that it's all electronic, what excuse do they have for matching shifters to cassettes? Wouldn't it be kinda cool to be able to run both a 9 speed shimano and an 11 speed campy wheelset on the same bike?

WhyFi

Yes, yes it would.

surgeonstone

Ya know, I just gotta wonder, the toughest athletes in the world and the effort to shift is just a little too demanding. Furthermore the prototype IS relevant. Dress it up, polish it up, add a few slick decals and you still have these fugly boxes hanging off down tubes and seat tubes.

Bob Dopolina 

When Campagnolo went to 11spd MANY Pro Tour riders complained about the much lighter shifting. They said that when they were on the rivet (going really hard for those not sure what I mean) and at the end of 5+ hour race, they couldn't feel the difference between shifting 2 or 3 cogs. The action was too light. More precisely they no longer had the ability to control their hands enough to work the lighter action and were misshifting.

If they think electronic shifting addresses this issue (and others) somehow then I wouldn't question it.

Brian Ratliff

It's the precision and response of shifting, not the "effort" of shifting. Who here thinks shifting takes "effort"? Shifting precision and response dictates what you can and cannot do with your bike. Every shift involves throwing a lever and then waiting for the drivetrain to settle in before applying power. It happens pretty fast now, but with electronic shifting, it happens faster. Especially when shifting the front ring. In certain situations (racing, mostly) this is a big advantage.

The Weak Link

I SING the Body electric;
The armies of those I love engirth me, and I engirth them;
They will not let me off till I go with them, respond to them,
And discorrupt them, and charge them full with the charge of the Soul.

Was it doubted that those who corrupt their own bodies conceal themselves;
And if those who defile the living are as bad as they who defile the dead?
And if the body does not do as much as the Soul?
And if the body were not the Soul, what is the Soul?

I think I liked Wayne Shorter's version better.

surgeonstone

Something I will never experience...regretfully.

DaveSSS 

I can't imagine being that out of it, but if true, what adresses that problem is a shifter that can only make one shift for each push of a lever or button.

Personally, I think this idea is baloney. It takes a much greater swing of the finger lever to shift 2 or 3 cogs instead of one. The thumb button clicks are just as distinct as ever, so that just can't be a legitimate complaint. The 11 speed finger clicks have always felt plenty distinct to me and the 2011 models have been revised to make the clicks even more distinct. The models that had very little finger lever feedback were the 2009 model 10 speed. That was corrected late in 2009.

Bob Dopolina 

Ah. You are right. I was misremembering. That was when the introduced the heavier spring and changed the logos on the lever to Red. It was in response to the rider feedback.

I'm not sure what part you think is baloney. What the riders said or my mistake. I assure you what the riders said was real but those guys can be very resistant to change.

DaveSSS 

I think the rider feedback is baloney. You have to be a dufus to accidentally move the finger lever enough to shift 2-3 cogs instead of one. The thumb button, even with it's distinct clicks, is easier to accidentally push or pull too hard and get more cogs than desired. That's why a few riders actually preferred the escape shifters. Those guys can now use 2011 Athena 11 shifters -they only shift one cog per push.

Bob Dopolina 

I guess you've never been so spent in a race that this could be a possibility?

The comments IIRC were about sprinting mostly (or the jumps in the last few km of a race) which would be the thumb shifter.

DaveSSS 

If it's much of a sprint, you'd think that the only shifting possibility would be from the 12 to the 11, a 1-cog shift that you can't screw up. I suppose you could be in the 13 and accidentally drop to the 11. The power-shift levers would eliminate that possibility.

Brian Ratliff

You'd think wrongly then. Feedback from the shifter is very important when you are on the rivet, hammering. Rec riders want the shifting to be effortless. Racers want feedback. You don't want to be left guessing about which cog is engaged when you are about to launch into a 1600W jump. The difference between a 12 tooth and an 11 tooth cog is huge. You really want to know which one you are in.

Also, while I'm sure there are some sprints happening at 47mph, I doubt very many, even in the pros. Contrary to popular belief, not much sprinting is done in the 11 tooth cog.

crhilton

I've heard the campy guys like the QS for cyclo cross. I'm told it's tough to control that thumb button on rough terrain.


With electronic I doubt they'll keep the analog multi shift method they have. I'm guessing it'll be rapid clicking.

DaveSSS 

You mean escape, not QS. QS affects the left finger lever - reducing dead travel. The escape and similar power-shift levers have the 1-cog thumb button limitation.

DaveSSS 

Feedback from the shifter won't tell you which cog you're in, only how many shifts you've made. You either have to look or have a gear indicator. The powershift levers would make the number of shifts obvious, since they only shift one cog smaller per push. Tough to mess that up.

If that's the need of sprinters, you should see many of them use the powershift lever, but it may be impossible to tell, since they'll put a Record or SR brake lever on it. Some pros have done that, dating back to '07, when the escape shifters first came out.

If an 11T is not needed, it would be wise not to even have it. Use a 12-23 instead of an 11-23.

grolby

It sees incredible, but there are tons of people out there who still just don't get this. This is highly anecdotal, but my experience is that a huge amount of the divide between those that that do and those that don't can be explained by whether they race a lot or not. Most of the guys on my team think that Di2 is brilliant. It's just that none of us can justify the cost.

That's not to say that racers can't be idiots about new tech. I wasn't around then, but from what I hear, a lot of them refused to see how indexing could possibly be an advantage when SIS first came out. It's just that, this time around, a lot of them seem to actually get it.

lukasz

They'd need it for going down hill.

Brian Ratliff

You count gears, and believe it or not, you usually only need to know the change in gearing, not the exact gear you are in. Shifting two gears instead of one means you don't get the acceleration you are expecting, and you have to waste time and mental power to correct the gearing. The 53/11 and 53/12 are not interchangeable gears.

The 11T is a rumbling gear. It's a nice gear to turn when guys are attacking off the front and the peloton is moving 35-40mph in a slight downhill or tailwind and you are right in the middle just keeping gaps from opening up. Or downhill, obviously, where it's pretty easy for even an amateur peloton to exceed 45mph. Point is, it has its uses. Sprinting is rarely one of them. Can't wind it up fast enough, and sprinting is mostly a game of acceleration.

Brian Ratliff

Even better than overshifting is when the derailleur hangs up in between gears. Say, you downshift from the 53/14 to the 53/15, but you go two clicks on the shifter. You can't really hear gears grinding when you are sitting in the middle of a peloton of 50-100 guys. You turn the crank a few times then apply power and it slams into the 53/16. Electronic shifting eliminates this behavior.