Nice write-up, Carpediem.

Too late.

i agree you explained it very well!

umd likes his Reynolds 46mm tubulars. He has said he feels a big difference compared to his "regular" wheels even at slower speeds. But he does longer road races and spends more time trying to get into the break.

Like this race back in August:

One article does not constitute "lots", however I will save you the trouble of reading it:

"..in the lab should experience latex resulting in a reduction of rolling resistance from 1.4-5.6w. Rolling resistance should be higher on the road, and thus the savings greater. The cost of rolling resistance on the road could be 50w or more for a 200-pound person. Latex tubes can reduce that cost by 10-20%. "

10% of 50W is 5W, 20% of 50W is 10W === how did you get 20W out of that math, you should at very best use low end as real.

Next:

"We pumped up the tires and rode. We didn't notice the tubes making a performance difference, ... saving even 5w would be hard to measure on the road."

Enough said. All latex tubes will do for you as increase the probability you will get a flat.

I think half the time he just steals stuff from that Sprinter della Casa blog

Everybody loves to make fun of posters that comment on equipment making them better. Yet most riders pursue this very goal. What gives??

Oh, and yes when I get the money together for Rob to build me a set of wheels I do expect to see improvement. Otherwise why spend the money??

It isn't a matter of making fun of. A very large percentage of these "My xxxxx equipment did xxxxxx miracle" are just not realistic. This is an internet forum, people come in read this and make the assumption it is true. The majority of it simply is not, why allow people to be misled? Further more shouldn't the origin of the information be guided to the truth?

Do you really expect to see an impressive difference from buying new wheels? Unless the wheels you currently ride have siezed bearings, are 20 lbs a piece, are badly warped, or out of round, you simply will notice a marginal or barely detectable difference. The bike may handle better, it may accelerate faster, but seriously... How much? How much of that do you think will actual translate to a big difference?

The real difference is the athlete, training, hard work, period.

If you look at my training data, my 20 yr old, 25 lb, Al frame beater is undetectable from my new 14 lb, top end Carbon. Sure they feel different, sure the newer one shifts like butter, feels great riding, but it is me on both, so MY data is the same plus or minus 2 to 5% depending on the day.

where do i begin with the slew of logical errors here?

improvement is not the same as improving speed. Why did i pick psimet? well, let's see: it's relatively light, BOMBPROOF, made using quality materials by a quality guy. Why are these improvements? Well, because for training, i rack up quite a bit of miles, and i'd like to be able to use quality wheels for at least a few seasons. The lightness is just the icing on the cake, but not the main goal itself.

:lol:

I hate that he writes sensible stuff...where does he think he is? :P

Makes the rest of us look bad

Well I agree 100% with hard training being the most important. But I have my training logs that show almost a 2 mph avg improvement over a 20 mile loop I ride daily as a result of a bike switch. So it's pretty obvious that the right equipment for an individual can make a difference. Now before you scream BS lets qualify my statement. I think with the switch (cause by me Trek breaking) I just happened into a bike that fit me better for my purposes. A lighter wheelset was only part of the equation. But then again a few months after getting this I swapped out the old and original appearing tires for a set a Conti GP 4000s. Jump in avg mph again although this time only about .5 mph. All this based on a fairly flat 20 mile loop I was riding everyday.

So, I'm not saying equipment is the instant cure for all biking evils. But even if it gives you a placebo effect and makes you faster than hey I'm all for giving it credit. Who cares what really motivates you to go faster. If what you believe will make you faster does then why beat someone down for it?? If I give you a sugar pill, tell you it's pain meds, and your aches go away. Who cares that it was really your mind vs the pain pill??:thumb:

What errors, those are the prett much the exact same improvements I'm looking for from my Psimet wheels. I never said in my post that my improvement was equated to speed. Although with a good 1.5 lb or so improvement over the current heave Bontragers I'm running I'm certain the mountains are going to be easier and thus a bit faster going up. Coming down my old age and fear of mortality will be the limiting factor, LOL!!

There is nothing wrong with thinking you're going faster because of your shiny new bike. But there are often new riders reading these forums and they should know that the only reason a new bike would make you measureably faster is because you changed your position. Of course, you could have gained the same speed by changing your position on the old bike as well.

I felt this way even about bladed spokes (vs traditional round). Probably all in my head, but I felt like my jumps were much slower with bladed spokes...

For detailed comparisons of wheel aerodynamics and stiffness: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/etudes

No argument with this at all, but you'd have to admit that very little of the debate on this forum is for the benefit of new riders/members.

Yep, set up my used Lemond to a close as I could the other bike the day I got it. When they built the new warranty Trek up I had that adjusted off the Schwinn's setup also. Of course this spring sometime I'm going to go to the best fitter I can find in the area and get it done right. Curious to see if the Circuit is even close to what would be considered best.

You are equating improvements to a wheelset with direct, measurable improvement in your speed, whereas improvements come in other ways, namely durability, ease of replacing damaged parts, etc.

I went from POS s!htmano 561 to a kinlin xr300 laced to white industry hubs with CX-ray spokes. The 561 goes out of true quite often, whereas the cx-ray only goes out of true when i really ding something (say a huge pothole at 28mph). Not to mention that it's hard to true the 561 b/c of the usage of internal nipples. As i said, the fact the kinlin front is about 120g light than the 561 is just icing.

The crappy Brontrager RaceXLights on my rain bike will shortly be replaced (when the build is done). I do not expect to see a speed increase, however, I do expect it to be easier at the same pace. Those Bonti's just don't roll well.

You really need to slow down and read what I have written. I even agreed with you on the desired "improvement" qualities if you go back and look. Lightness was low or possibly not even mentioned when I emailed Rob for a quote. I certainly did not tell him I want them faster, LOL!! Like your last statement, I'll be going from a wheelset of around 2400+ grams to around 1600 grams, icing on the cake but it's the other attributes I asked for that matter to me. Oh and yes I do suspect they'll be faster accellerating and climbing. Not seeing where we disagree at all...

The advantages conferred by lighter, better high end bike gear are hard to quantify, but I think they can be real. But it's subtle, and it really only works for people who ride competitively, i.e., racing, Nyack Rides, etc. If you're on a course that climbs a 500 meter 7% grade lap after lap or if you're constantly jamming to counter surges in a race or ride - repeated hard efforts that are typical in fast rides and races - that's when the slightly lower effort required from you because of your lighter wheels or newer and better bicycle might start to pay off. Maybe slightly less fatigue in the final 20 minutes because of the repeated energy savings of having to crank out a few less watts over and over in a race - that's where I think you see some advantage. That's my perception.

But at the end of the day it's mostly more because it makes you THINK it's faster, nice bike schwag is cool, and it's fun to gaze at it as your bike leans up against the Starbucks window.

Oh relax

Ahh, so maybe this is where some think I'm wrong (maybe I am!) You don't expect them to see an increased pace if you maintain your current effort?? I'm certain I can get lighter wheels up to speed faster, up hills/mountains faster, etc. Maybe I'm confusing people by saying speed when I really mean my avg speed over a distance thus my pace.