miwoodar

I recently heard a story about a rider who would routinely ride away from people without actually attacking. He would just slowly pull away. It got me thinking...

Let's say I'm riding 2nd wheel holding a constant 300 watts on flat ground w/o wind. What kind of constant watts differential would be required for the person in front of me to slowly stretch the draft and slip away? 350? 400?

Homebrew01

In other words, what is the power difference between riding on the front, and drafting behind someone ?

Edit ... plus 1 watt

As soon as the front rider opens a gap, there is less advantage to the rider behind, so the bigger the gap, the smaller the energy differential is needed.

miwoodar

Not exactly, the rider in front needs to escape.

kimconyc

Dialing it up to 400 watts seemed to work on Lance.

grwoolf

The difference, plus one watt.

Lots of variables such as grade, wind direction, etc.

JonnyV

I'm going with 301 watts, Bob.

SpongeDad

I've read that the drafter saves up to a 1/3 on flat road. Even if it was only 1/4, the lead rider would have to be over 400. But then, as he or she moved away, the benefit of the draft would diminish, so the gap would grow more quickly. Of course, if you're climbing a big hill, the speeds are slower, drafting is less beneficial and the difference in power or w/kg to ride someone off your wheel less.

StephenH

Okay, some of you folks with powermeters need to go test this out and report back.

I would point out also that the original question can be very vague. Where someone has slowly pulled away from me like that, it generally wasn't an issue of just not being able to go any faster, but realizing that if I keep riding that fast, or speed up, I'm going to be too tired a few miles down the road. In other words, it becomes a pacing issue rather than a speed question. You don't want to be completely wiped out and still have a 115 miles to go.

miwoodar

You guys are hard to please.

Rider two is at 300 watts
Both riders 5'10" and 160lbs
Flat ground
Sea level
No wind
1 mile (~2:30) to gather a 10 foot gap
Rider two is a xyz watts.

Grumpy McTrumpy

well, considering you want a scientific answer, the answer is:

any amount, as long as it is more

one watt is just fine.

the reasoning:

this argument cannot be boiled down to an equation because it contains too many variables that cannot be removed. You are producing 300w exactly in a steady-state effort. That is enough to hold position and do no more. As soon as the situation changes causing rider one to increase speed, you will have to increase your output as well. if you are going to allow all of these little "Adjustments" into the equation, it becomes an infinite set of unpredictable variables.

Forget it.

Grumpy McTrumpy

oh and the story you heard?

I have done races where: 1. I am that guy, or 2. I have seen other guys do it.

It has nothing to do with watts. It's all about grey matter, and fooling the other guys.

kleinboogie

Agreed, it's more complex than just watts. In the all too rare case where I've pulled away it was because even at that 1/3rd-ish savings if the person behind can't sustain that effort they'll let up to recover and the gap opens and that's it. I'm big so if I'm on the hoods I'm carving a huge hole through the air vs. tucking into the drops it's more difficult. Throw in a corner or two and the accordion affect kicks in and opens up jump opportunities.

So quick answer is of course, it depends. GL

Paul Y.

umd would have a graph for it.

Grumpy McTrumpy

the times it's worked for me have gone like this:

I go to the front and get my pull in but realize that people are snoozing and letting me hang out there, so I just very slightly add some speed without making it look like an effort (it feels like an effort though)

next thing you know I am OTF.

Or maybe just go to the other side of the road and hang there like an idiot, slowly moving forward...

Psimet2001 

There you go folks. Pay the man for the education he just gave you. Racing is more about brain than brawn. Poker face/ race face is better than ability in many cases. If you even remotely doubt this then suck on the fact that I have points and I have NO physical ability or skill.

...if it didn't hurt you wouldn't get away. if you could train to do it - so can everyone else. it's about getting your brain to make your body do what it can't and/or shouldn't and poker face everyone in the process. It is so effective it causes others to come on to online forums and post about guys who just pull away and ask how they can train to do it too.

KiddSisko

Depends.

patentcad

Yet another notch in the 41 Dumbass Thread Belt.










Carry on.

KiddSisko

My real answer: 0 watts. Just find yourself on a descent.

ridethatbike

maximum.

Will G

How many watts are required on the part of Rider 1 to shove an tire pump into the spokes of Rider 2? That'll open a gap bigtime.

Grumpy McTrumpy

in a major race last season (one where I got badly dropped by the end but was a factor early) there was a situation where the tempo began to slow, and a four-man break went OTF.

I went to the front and set a fake tempo, not enough to bring back the break, but enough so they let me stay in the lead.

I turned my head and said to my teammate in a soft voice "so, do you want to go up there?"

he went up there, without really pushing all that hard. The rest of the pack just let him ride away since they were sort of lulled into a false sense of security from the tempo that hadn't changed since I was just keeping it there.

once the guys in the pack realized what was going on, surge-city. We caught the break in short order without much of an effort from either of us. I would have preferred if our man had gone up there and the break had stayed away, but at least we only spent the minimum energy and removed the threat of the break.

wfrogge

Then get banned for posting it while calling the OP a name