Which Is Better a Steel?
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Which Is Better a Steel?
What is the real difference between these entire steel frame such as the Reynolds, True Temper, Columbus and others etc? Can some really give a breakdown the qualities of these steel materials?
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Originally Posted by speedemon
What is the real difference between these entire steel frame such as the Reynolds, True Temper, Columbus and others etc? Can some really give a breakdown the qualities of these steel materials?
All the companies you mentioned produce high end steel tubing as well as garden variety steel tubing.
I'm not a real expert in this field (I will be more educated once I decide on my next frame), but I'll give you an example---> Reynolds 853 is one of the nicer tube sets combining high strength with lightweight.
Sorry, I couldn't help more.
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Yes, I did a search but couldn't find a thread the given the details. So you don't have a link to thread? Well I'll try the search again and see if I can get a breakdown.
Thanks
Thanks
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Originally Posted by speedemon
Yes, I did a search but couldn't find a thread the given the details. So you don't have a link to thread? Well I'll try the search again and see if I can get a breakdown.
Thanks
Thanks
Let me see...maybe I'll try search for "steel tubing"
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If you click the 'advanced search' link and type in 'steel' and get it to search titles only, you'll find the answers in there somewhere.
Or just wait for Don D to chime in and espouse the virtues of Columbus TSX...or something.
Just keep in mind, the tubing is just the raw material - two bikes made from the same tubes are not the same bike. I know that sounds obvious, but it's amazing how many people think that.
*edit* Okay, I found the threads. Here's what i said last time -
Steels. 3 basic categories -
4130 or Cromoly - A Steel alloy of Chromium and Molybdenum. There are various different grades of this, but it's kinda the basic performance metal. Common brands/models are Columbus Gara and Thron, and True Temper Versus. Sometimes these materials are heat treated, which improves their mechanical properties, such as with True Temper Versus HT.
Micro-Alloyed steels - Sometimes using 4130 as a base, some other elements such as Niobium, Manganese and Vanadium are alloyed with it to improve the grain structure of the material, therefore improving it's mechanical properties or post weld characteristics. Columbus Zona is probably the best well know example.
Air hardening or Thermophillic steels - These are alloys usually specifically designed to have certain reactions to the heating TIG welding emparts on a frame. The material is designed to withstand or improve at the Heat Affected Zone (HAZ). Some examples are 853, OX Platinum, and Foco/Ultrafoco.
( There's also now a version of the above with Niobium alloyed into the mix. Apparently this improves ductility or some such spiel. Typical example is Columbus Spirit and Life. )
Now, all materials are not created equal. There are many ways to improve a material that are not simply a matter of alloying it, such as heat treating it or working it mechanically by work hardening, drawing, swaging, butting etc.
More info can be found in the threads -
"Steel numbers:Translation please?"
and
"what exactly is cro-moly"
Or just wait for Don D to chime in and espouse the virtues of Columbus TSX...or something.
Just keep in mind, the tubing is just the raw material - two bikes made from the same tubes are not the same bike. I know that sounds obvious, but it's amazing how many people think that.
*edit* Okay, I found the threads. Here's what i said last time -
Steels. 3 basic categories -
4130 or Cromoly - A Steel alloy of Chromium and Molybdenum. There are various different grades of this, but it's kinda the basic performance metal. Common brands/models are Columbus Gara and Thron, and True Temper Versus. Sometimes these materials are heat treated, which improves their mechanical properties, such as with True Temper Versus HT.
Micro-Alloyed steels - Sometimes using 4130 as a base, some other elements such as Niobium, Manganese and Vanadium are alloyed with it to improve the grain structure of the material, therefore improving it's mechanical properties or post weld characteristics. Columbus Zona is probably the best well know example.
Air hardening or Thermophillic steels - These are alloys usually specifically designed to have certain reactions to the heating TIG welding emparts on a frame. The material is designed to withstand or improve at the Heat Affected Zone (HAZ). Some examples are 853, OX Platinum, and Foco/Ultrafoco.
( There's also now a version of the above with Niobium alloyed into the mix. Apparently this improves ductility or some such spiel. Typical example is Columbus Spirit and Life. )
Now, all materials are not created equal. There are many ways to improve a material that are not simply a matter of alloying it, such as heat treating it or working it mechanically by work hardening, drawing, swaging, butting etc.
More info can be found in the threads -
"Steel numbers:Translation please?"
and
"what exactly is cro-moly"
Last edited by Thylacine; 10-22-04 at 01:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by redfooj
the differents are not as significant as you'd think
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It's easy to get caught up in the comparative tensile-strength ratings of different alloys/tubesets, but these are strictly mechanical properties and have little affect on the overall strength of the built frame. The only thing that they really affect is weight, since higher strength steel can be made into thinner-walled tubing, but lightweight, thin-walled tubing, somewhat regardless of the mechanical properties of the material, is at a disadvatage when it comes to toughness and is more susceptible to denting and tearing. This is the reason why touring bikes, which need to carry a lot of extra weight, are built from fairly generic chro-mos like Reynolds 531 and 525, and not the high-tech 631 and 853 steels.
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This site has a good rundown on Current steel tubesets.
I know there was a site that detailed the diffs between all of
the classic tubesets (i.e. Reynolds 531 & 753, Columbus SL, SLX Aelle etc.)
but I can't seem to find it now, will post link to that one if I find it later.
Here's current info: https://www.sanobike.com/tubesets.htm
I know there was a site that detailed the diffs between all of
the classic tubesets (i.e. Reynolds 531 & 753, Columbus SL, SLX Aelle etc.)
but I can't seem to find it now, will post link to that one if I find it later.
Here's current info: https://www.sanobike.com/tubesets.htm
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"Better" depends on your weight, your size, your strength, and how you ride your bike. Reynolds 531, at one time, came in about eight "official" types, and a couple of "off the books" types used for one day record attempts, with the idea they would be ridden just ONE day.
So, a frame builder could select Reynolds tubes for a tandem bike, for a heavy touring bike, a light touring bike, a bike intended for a twenty day stage race, or a bike intended for a 20 minute track race.
Builders could "mix and match" the tubes to suit their own design goals. In the 1970's the Schwinn Paramount used a heavier tube for the top tube than did most comparable bikes. Schwinn thought it reduced some of the "twisting" at the bottom bracket that extremely strong riders can create on a light frame. No other builders shared that thought.
The "big" steel tube companies, such as Reynolds, Columbus, and Tange always gave builders a lot of good choices in tubing. How well a bike turned out depended on the choices the builder made, and how well the builder executed those choices.
Rivendell currently will mix steel tubes from two or three companies on the same bike. They look at the weight and size of the rider, how he or she will use the bike, and then pick the combination of tubes that they think will best meet that individual rider's goals. That kind of "custom" tuning of a bike's feel is one of the advantages of steel, but is also one of the reason that a custom frame costs a lot more than the stuff stamped out on factory production lines.
So, a frame builder could select Reynolds tubes for a tandem bike, for a heavy touring bike, a light touring bike, a bike intended for a twenty day stage race, or a bike intended for a 20 minute track race.
Builders could "mix and match" the tubes to suit their own design goals. In the 1970's the Schwinn Paramount used a heavier tube for the top tube than did most comparable bikes. Schwinn thought it reduced some of the "twisting" at the bottom bracket that extremely strong riders can create on a light frame. No other builders shared that thought.
The "big" steel tube companies, such as Reynolds, Columbus, and Tange always gave builders a lot of good choices in tubing. How well a bike turned out depended on the choices the builder made, and how well the builder executed those choices.
Rivendell currently will mix steel tubes from two or three companies on the same bike. They look at the weight and size of the rider, how he or she will use the bike, and then pick the combination of tubes that they think will best meet that individual rider's goals. That kind of "custom" tuning of a bike's feel is one of the advantages of steel, but is also one of the reason that a custom frame costs a lot more than the stuff stamped out on factory production lines.
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Originally Posted by tbreihan
It's easy to get caught up in the comparative tensile-strength ratings of different alloys/tubesets, but these are strictly mechanical properties and have little affect on the overall strength of the built frame. The only thing that they really affect is weight, since higher strength steel can be made into thinner-walled tubing, but lightweight, thin-walled tubing, somewhat regardless of the mechanical properties of the material, is at a disadvatage when it comes to toughness and is more susceptible to denting and tearing. This is the reason why touring bikes, which need to carry a lot of extra weight, are built from fairly generic chro-mos like Reynolds 531 and 525, and not the high-tech 631 and 853 steels.
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One bike magazine in the UK had 4 identical bikes made up with various grades of Columbus tubesets. The identically equipped bikes were tested by experienced riders. The differences were less significant than people imagine. Since these were standard tubesets for medium road frames, no special customisation was needed.