AusTai

Hi,

I'm planning to buy a compact crankset and I'm trying to decide whether to stick with a square taper one or get an Ultra Torque one. If you have UT now and came from ST, did you notice a big difference? Any problems with increased noise and dirt contamination? Seemed there was a fair amount of complaints about that with OBB but I couldn't tell how problematic that was with UT. Finally, is BB facing really necessary?

Thanks a bunch in advance.

Campag4life

Me. Long time Campy guy. My opinion is, the UT is far superior to old square taper. Now did square taper get us down the road just fine?
Yup...but perhaps more reports of square taper BB's failing compared to UT. I love my UT carbon Chorus compact. One of the best products Campy has made IMHO. Some run this crank on other gruppos in fact it is so good. I believe it is stiffer as well but the biggest thing is set up.
It is much easier to set up compared to square taper. You may know that square taper crank arms were hugely sensitive to bolt torque affecting depth of arm draw onto the spindle due to the drafted square. Ultra Torque Hirth joint is line to line...torque it to spec and forget it...easy to get apart and service. I have had no problems with contamination ingress...but....I am a fair weather rider on my road bike (not mtb).
Don't even think about square taper unless you have one laying around and don't want to buy a crankset.
As to facing the BB...most new frames today in my experience come pre-faced. My Look frame didn't require to be faced and the threads were clean and chased as well.
Campy has just redesigned their cranks again a la Shimano's separate splined left crank arm solid axle design which is no doubt excellent as well although Campy still offers the Hirth saw tooth joint on certain models.
Hope that helps.

AngryScientist 

if you actually get an UltraTorque crankset, you MUST be sure your bottom bracket width is in the appropriate range, or the joint will not mate up properly. the BB really needs to be faced so it is 90 degrees exactly so the cups sit perfectly flush with the frame. your frame may or may not be suitable for this.

MrTuner1970

UT is such a beautiful and elegantly simple system. You won't have any problems with noise or dirt contamination.

AngryScientist 

yea, once they are installed, they just work great.

MrTuner1970

I had my LBS install Chorus on my Lynskey (1 1/2 years ago). This was before I started doing my own wrenching. To grease the bearings, the crank had to be taken out. I did that, and was literally amazed at how easy and simple it was to do.

Regarding facing, I'd still let the LBS do that just because I don't need those tools often enough to justify purchase. Campy gives the dimensions that will work.

ultraman6970

pretty much everybody using UT came from squared tapper BBs hehehe It can't be any other way unless your 1st bike has with Outter board cups. I have to agree with everybody, simple, it works, and u can feel some difference in the pedaling big time. BBs cups are cheap and easy to replace. Change cranks now is easy and fast, 1 small screwdriver to take the clip out, a 10 mm allen tool, pull the cranks out, done. 2 minutes tops.

mmmdonuts

Go with UT, great stuff. BB shell width can be an issue so you might want to measure that before you pull the trigger.

AusTai

Lots of enthusiastic yeahs and no nays -- I think I'll go with UT, then.

Eyeballing my BB, the width is about 68mm, which is in range. It's a steel frame, FWIW. I'll have it faced to be safe.

Thanks for all the info.

Campag4life

AusTai,
Just tell the tech facing it to not take much off...just kiss the BB on each side for clean up. This is because the UT torque crank axle width is fixed. The more your mech takes off the BB, the more axial play will exist which is taken up with the wave washer that comes with the crank.
If possible you want to keep axial play to a minimum. For best perspective go to Campy's site and download their PDF for setting up the UT and it will provide a dimensional tolerance for low side BB thickness. I believe but not entirely sure that one of the threaded outboard end cones...one chosen is specific to enhance chain line...can also be spaced out if your BB is too narrow after facing to take up the increased axial clearance. Campy's instructions would cover this and perhaps somebody else reading this can confirm.

MrTuner1970

You can find digital calipers for fairly cheap. The one I have cost around $30-35. Better than eyeballing. I know $30 is $30, but I had mine before using it for just biking.

mpearson76

I just switched from a 2003-ish Chorus square taper to a 2009 UT Chorus carbon compact. So I have an 11sp crankset and FD mated to a pre-QS 10sp grouppo. Maybe it doesn't work as well as it should with an all 11sp setup, but it was an improvement in every way over the matching 10sp parts. I'm a skeptic, so I did not expect a discernible difference, but wow, was I wrong. A few years ago a guy who rides the same frame I do commented that he liked how stiff it was. I was puzzled at the time because I didn't think it was stiff at all, but it turns out that what I though was lateral flex in the frame was all between the BB shell and the pedals. Swapping in that crankset made it feel like a different bike--the BB feels rock solid; in fact, I scratched a new carbon frame off my wish list because of it, so I figure it saved me some $$! It also shaved off nearly half a pound, which is nice too.

As for the BB facing issue--I had some paint chipping off of the BB face, so I carefully scraped off the paint and just barely filed it with a sharpening stone (because it's flat and contacted the whole face at the same time, but I could not ensure the correct angle) and installed it temporarily until I could get in to the shop and have it faced. When I got there a few days later, the mechanic told me that they didn't even have the tool because all the frames they see are already faced, and he didn't think it made enough difference to justify the purchase. He told me that as long as it seemed smooth, it's probably fine. It's smooth as butter, so I just put it back together and have been riding it that way ever since. I'll take the slight possibility of shortened bearing life over the very real possibility of some shop mechanic taking off just a bit too much of the BB shell, making it impossible to get a proper install without lateral play. I did read about a guy who makes washers for this problem though, so that's always an option if you don't have a wide enough BB shell.

mpearson76

Oh and by the way, I decided on UT because the eBay market for vintage Campy is really strong. I picked up a nearly new UT with BB cups for less than I saw a compatible square taper Centaur Carbon compact, no BB, go for a few days prior. I had been leaning toward keeping the sq taper because I thought it would be cheaper, did not think it would make much performance difference, and worried that it would not be compatible with my old shifters and drivetrain. I was wrong about all 3 of those.

AusTai

I'm going to call some of the shops in town that carry lots of Campy equipped brands. They should be able to face the BB correctly, right?

About a caliper, I have one, albeit a cheap one. The problem is I don't want to take off the crank and ST BB cups. I know -- that's taking a chance the crankset won't fit, but I'm hoping my eyeballing skills are sufficient. I'm planning to never mess with ST BBs again once I take mine off and put on the UT.

I'm also surprised by how affordable the more recent Campy stuff. Now I'm planning to upgrade the rear derailleur, too, if I can figure out the relative merits of Veloce vs Mirage vs Daytona, plus the differences between model years.

mpearson76

They should know, but then again, so do I. Problem is, you need to find a shop that has this tool: https://www.parktool.com/product/p/bo...ket-facing-set

It's not cheap, and as I said, my LBS doesn't have it because the need for it doesn't justify the cost for them.

I think the eyeballing method is good enough, because it should work as long as it's close to spec--Campy specifies that it can be .8mm + or -, I think. And worst case, you can use some shims like the ones sold here:
https://roguemechanic.bigcartel.com/

ultraman6970

The job takes 10 to 15 minutes tops, if they want to charge you like 60 to 80 bucks for it say NO and get the hell out of there. 40 bucks is kind'a ok but anything over that is overkill it. LBS tend to charge a lot based in two premises, 1 that they dont want to do the work so you walk away or that they are the only ones that have the tool to do it, thing that is understandable but one thing is to charge 20 bucks per hour for any job and another charge 80 for 10 or 15 minutes.

Wonder if you really need that FF faced, maybe not. From what I have noticed the new UT cups are way more forgiving if the shell is not super perfect, but is always good to do it. If your previous crankset did not give you any problem i dont see why to do it now. Always u can do it later.

As for the shims, well. The last cups editions looks like are tiny wider, i dont know if anybody noticed, they even changed the color to a brownish/greyiish mix.

mpearson76

By "new" do you mean the 2011 model year?

AusTai

Just ordered a Mirage UT crankset. The seller did not list the year but I can only find evidence that Campy had a Mirage UT crankset in 2008. Sounds right?

AusTai

One last question: would it be OK for me to use Super Record cups instead of Record Cups? The former seems more readily available and more discounted. Only difference that I can tell is the finish and that the SR cups use an oil (for the ceramic bearings) instead of grease, which I would replace, of course. Thanks.

mmmdonuts

The bearings are on the cranks, not the cups. I think all cups are the same except for the finish.

AngryScientist 

actually the SR cups are a bit lighter, and have less seals than the record cups, since they are made for ceramic bearings. the SR cups will indeed work just fine, but dont seal the bearings as well as the record cups. use either/or, but if you ride in the wet a lot, i'd look for the record cups.

mmmdonuts

I wasn't aware of the seal difference until you pointed this out. Makes no sense to me that ceramic bearings wouldn't need protection from contaminants. I think all bearings do regardless of material, but that's just me. I guess the ceramic bearing weenies can't tolerate any seal drag.

AngryScientist 

i think you're correct, and i agree completely. us mere mortals who actually ride our bikes and dont have team mechanics to do full bike rebuilds between grand tours in europe should stick to the better sealed record cups

AusTai

Digging a bit further, now that I'm more or less fully awake, seems the difference in the seals is that the SR are missing an inner seal that the R have. Of course, the chance of getting contamination from inside the frame is less likely if there's no ingress opening for dirt and whatnot. Also, seems the SR cups are hard anodized while the R are not. That's what I gathered so far without speaking to someone from Campy.

AusTai

FYI, Competitive Cyclist has the 2010 Super Record cups for $15 on clearance.