Wow, I've been away for a few days and am enjoying reading back through all the replies. Thanks for all the great contributions about riding position. I think that this is the best and brightest use of the internet, when we all can learn from each other.

For example, I hadn't considered the possibility that improving my pelvis and spine orientation might allow for some changes in bike adjustments, but that makes a lot of sense. In fact, my bike is up on the work stand now, in the process of being recabled, so I'll try lowering the bars while I'm at it.

Can't wait to try out that idea - it should really help in this Texas wind. Of course, it might also mean that I need to swap for a whole new bike...

I'm not sure what you mean about my observations being in conflict with Fizik's. Thanks for the link to the spinal diagrams, though. Based on their categorizations, I would say that my position change moved me from the "Snake" to the "Bull," at least in the way they depict the sitbone pressure moving toward the front of the pelvis. Perhaps I should try the Aliante?

If you ride with a large saddle to handlebar drop like Cobb is advocating is there any time when you would use the drops apart from sprinting?

I like less drop. I can climb in the drops. I like riding there so I set my bike up that way. If I am riding 20 miles into a head wind, no problem.

Agree with RW. For the average cyclist...which would be me, I prefer less drop which makes the drops more usable with average flexibility. If you rewatch Cobb's videos, he starts off with what he calls an average bike shop position of say 1 inch drop or so. There is a reason that is the average bike shop fitting position, many riders prefer it. :) I believe he goes to extremes to prove a point that he is correct about however. Many ride slump backed with their pelvis rotated rearward and many would benefit with a straighter back. I just disagree on the magnitude of drop he suggests. The great Lance Armstrong who is of average height rides with a 80mm drop = 3 inches. Of all the guys that race this is very pedestrian, but for the average weekend rider a 1-3" drop makes a lot of sense and will probably be more comfortable than either a higher or lower handlebar.
Hope that helps.

About a minute and a half in...and on from there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FsaN9uMo10

Doesn't this thread show a fallacy with the assometer method of saddle selection. I measure to a 155, but have so far been most comfortable on a Cobb 170, which is 130 mm. Also, is the riding position being advocated one where the sit bones aren't being sat directly upon, but most contact is forward of the sit bones. I feel like I'm moving towards a "laying down" position. I hope this is descriptive enough.
I increased the drop yesterday and felt some moderate improvement. I didn't adjust the saddle at all. If I understand this thread, the next adjustment might be to move the saddle aft a bit. Does this make sense?

Believe you said it pretty well. For virtually all, independent of how wide respective sit bones are spaced, when a rider rotates more forward, the space between the sit bones becomes less. So for choosing a saddle, the position of the rider matters when choosing a suitable saddle. This btw is why the lion share of road bike saddles sold are more narrow than for a cruiser. The angle of the pelvis for each bike is different requiring a different saddle for a different riding position for even the same rider.

A question. Which saddle are you referring to...when you reference the Cobb 170? Is this a saddle 170mm wide that is designed for 130mm sit bone spacing? I didn't quite understand your reference about 170 and 130 and would appreciate a clarification.
Thanks.

Yep... I switch back and forth between that and a low-hoods position when going fast.

Like Bike Eagle I solved a decades long back issue by changing my posture. Amazing really. I'd describe it as relaxing every part of my body except the ones making the pedals go around. I immediately went to a 2cm longer reach and 4cm lower drop and was much more comfortable. You might also wish to move your saddle rearward and maybe down a little... depends on where you started.

One important note... I had to learn how to pedal differently, because before I would do this weird core bracing thing that caused a lot of unnecessary tension. If you keep your core relaxed (forget core exercises!) then the right stroke will come naturally. More glutes and hamstrings, with more pulling back at the bottom.

I use a saddle to bar drop of about 17.5 cm, which puts me lower on my hoods than many guys are in their drops. I use a compact bar, so there isn't much of a difference between the hoods and the hooks. I use the drops often, about 40 - 60% of the time, depending on the terrain and my mood. I use the drops for descending, long drags in a headwind, pulling, rollers and short climbs, uphill accelerations, cornering, fast stops, emergency stops. I use the hoods for climbing, long drags in a headwind, pulling, rollers and short climbs, uphill accelerations, cornering, and in traffic. I'm thinking about changing to a classic bend bar soon to get a little more drop.

Yep, too many riders white knuckle it on climbs. If you relax your upper body and only use the muscles necessary to keep you upright, you will be amazed how much more energy you can easily give to your pedal stroke.

A question. Which saddle are you referring to...when you reference the Cobb 170? Is this a saddle 170mm wide that is designed for 130mm sit bone spacing? I didn't quite understand your reference about 170 and 130 and would appreciate a clarification.
Thanks.

The 170 refers to the weight. Just verified on the website that it's 130 mm wide, 38mm nose.

I did a 37 mile ride today, and my butt got kinda sore. I was noticing that it felt almost as if someone were pinching me, or pulling on the hairs. That is, it seemed more like a surface thing.

So when I got back I took off the cheap tights I was wearing, put on my better REI shorts, and rode up and down street. There was a definite improvement. I think I'll check out some better shorts/tights.

I suppose that's the case (snake to bull). I mean it's in conflict in that Fizik suggests more flexible (implies experienced? time in the saddle leads to flexibility?) riders prefer their hips rotated back. Most people in this thread seem to be advocating the opposite, that a more proper fit (for new and experienced riders both) is to rotate the hips forward. In my experience I'm much more comfortable with the hips rotated back, but as this thread shows that might be due to other fit factors. When I rotate my hips forward I definitely feel the pressure on the "genitalia" as Fizik suggests. It also makes sense that spine flexibility would lead one to be able to have hips back but still have the same reach as someone with a less flexible spine. Of course, flexibility isn't really just in the spine...the hamstrings, legs, hips, etc. all come into play. I honestly don't know what the answer is, it just seems like the concepts of what an advanced rider does are conflicting between this thread and Fizik's spine concept.

The bar drop concept is definitely working for me. It has eliminated the shoulder/neck discomfort associated with road shock being caused by the turtle position.
Because I have the leg/back flexibility, I was trying to drive my torso down but was blocked by the high bars.
Now what I'm wondering is should I go longer stem. I still feel just a bit hunched up in my upper back and can't get that flattness for looking down the road. Will that help flatten out the back without a need for more pelvic rotation and or more stem drop?

I'm also wondering about positioning of my pelvis. More pressure on my perineum than I'd like..too much rotation maybe??? Too much saddle tilt? Too high a saddle?? Too far back??

Yesterday I rode with a little less forward pelvic rotation and it felt better. Saddle was higher and forward just a tad and much less tilt.
More experimenting today.

The Fizik demo is interesting in how it shows the pelvic position on the Arione as using lower back flexibility. I might have to demo this saddle.
The position on the Aliante is what's being promoted here.. isn't it? More of a rotated pelvic.

Sounds like you are making progress. Arms pushing too much on a bar positioned too high is common fit issue with cyclists trying to ride a road bike like a cruiser because they think it will more comfortable when the opposite is true.
The only way really to find a given rider's best position on the bike is trial and error. A fitter can help facilitate the migration toward a better fit if they have a keen eye. A video camera or digital with video capability helps for feedback as well. So there are no answer to your stem length versus drop sweet spot. You have to try everything. I have purchased all kind of stems seeking my best fit..and saddles. If you have issue with pressure on your nuts, then consider a saddle like Specialized with a cutout for relief.
I am convinced that many don't rotate their pelvis properly due to poor fit and concern over putting too much pressure on their tender bits. The other thing is, good posture really isn't conscious, its a symptom of good fit as previous stated. You don't have to have fantastic core strength to ride in a good position if your bike is fit properly with adequate setback. Most don't or can't ride with 17cm drop like rat fink which is more aggressive than many if not most pro cyclists. RF obviously has 5% top flexibility that most don't possess. In summary forward pelvis rotation doesn't take extraordinary flexibility by any means. In fact it allows you to ride more aggressively with less flexibility. Forward pelvis rotation + Mega drop does require top flexibility however.

Below is a pic of George Hincapie. Take note of his relaxed riding position on the hoods. Big George even with very long arms rides with just less than 12cm drop which isn't a lot for his stature. He rides with an aggressive < 45 degree torso angle on the hoods however with long horizontal reach to the bars which is racey as you would expect but take note of how forward his pelvis is rotated...an extreme forward rotation which allows him to get a flat back in the drops and not have too much tension in the lombar of his spine when riding the hoods. For all the miles he trains and races his sitbones have to be supporting his weight of 180 lbs or so or he would have big problems so a forward pelvis position can be tolerated even if riding 12-15K miles a year.

another angle on this whole issue: weight on the cranks/pedals vs weight on the seat. this correlates to leg strength. if you're going to be applying relatively light pressure to the pedals, i.e. putting all your weight on the saddle, then (for me anyway) it's going to hurt the soft tissue to rotate too far forward. 175lbs of force, 135mm wide right into frontal crotch? no thanks. however if I'm pushing 250 watts plus it isn't really an issue. if I'm going to back off the watts then I like to rotate the pelvis back and sit on the good ol' sit bones; then of course lower back flexibilty is necessary to remain somewhat aero.

I want a bike like Marco Pantani's. Seriously.

Excellent points, thanks.
I'll be using a video to see how my posture is... I'm also curious about my leg extension, although I've tried using climbing a hill as a better gauge to saddle height than a specific angle.
I'm in total agreement about core strength and set back.
There must be a point of too much setback, saddle height and stem length; to where it interferes with all of what we're talking about.

The 120 stem should be arriving by this weekend and I'm going to experiment with saddle position all over again starting more forward. My thought is that to compensate for something I've gone to the 110 stem. I 'feel' cramped and if the rule is true that if you find yourself constantly pushing yourself back in the saddle, the stem is too short, then my stem is too short.
Not too mention, my bike was built around a 120 stem.


This is why a ride with more effort usually feels more comfortable, albeit not for 4+ hours, but for the shorter hammer rides.

Revelation: 37-mile ride three days ago, butt sore, 81-mile ride yesterday, butt not sore. There was no change in the bicycle at all, the only difference was better bike shorts!

So, I've been experimenting with saddle position, saddle orientation, and handlebar position, and drawing conclusions. But because the shorts that I happened to wear on a given ride was random, those conclusions were worthless.

It seems that I was confusing pain on the surface (skin) with deep down pain.

On the butt-sore ride, I was wearing these. They have a simple chamois. On the butt-comfortable ride, I was wearing these. Although inexpensive, they have a thicker molded pad, and came highly recommended from someone on this forum. I also wore some non-padded tights on the outside of the shorts. I was also wearing suspenders (poor-man's bibs).

Based on this, I'm going to shell out some dough for some more-expensive shorts.

This was one of my (many) misconceptions. I've been riding a mtn bike on the streets for years, where my posture is more upright; recently I have picked up a couple of nice road bikes and have felt uncomfortable, too stretched out with a sore lower back and butt, and overworked hands and shoulders. Thought I should correct it by bringing the bar up with a higher angled stem so I'd be in the more upright position I was used to on the mtn bike. Reading through this great thread certainly suggests that the opposite is true, and it is my positioning which needs correcting. Have also been uncomfortable on the saddles I've been riding.

So commuting to work today on the mtn bike I tested the suggestion of riding with a flatter back--did not adjust anything on the bike, just my body position. Felt better, especially in the back and butt, though the commute was only 2 miles. Also think that starting with repositioning my body on the more relaxed mtn bike is a way to ease into this and experiment as I apply what I've learned to the road bikes.


I've heard a lot of references to the "sit bones" in this thread; would someone please clarify exactly which bones are being referred to and how one should typically be sitting on them (or not) when on a casual distance ride? I'm not a masher or big climber, prefer my recreational rides but looking to increase my performance and comfort and extend the distances I ride.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I lost a lot of weight this year. and as a result I've changed my increased the bar to saddle drop. as I've gotten fitter, I've increased my mileage to almost 150 miles a week and the increase in riding time bothered my wrists. So I pulled up this thread and a set of allen wrenches and went to work.

the biggest change was moving my brooks saddle all the way back and tilted the nose up to 9 degrees from 5 degrees (measured with my android phone). I also swapped out my 90 mm stem for 110 mm stem. With this position, I've been able to relieve pressure on my wrists and get into a more comfortable, more stretched out, aero position. as a side benefit, the longer stem provides a more comfortable standing, climbing position. With this position, i definitely notice an increase in speed when I push it.

No way this position would have worked for me when I was 25-30 lbs heavier. My belly would have touched my thighs on the top of the pedal stroke.

This thread is awesome!

Out of curiosity, how do you think this advice fits in with the Competitive Cyclist fit calculator for instance? Are the people in this thread who moved their saddle back behind KOPS now?

The stem's too long or the the saddle's too far back if it feels like you're pulling yourself out of the back seat to stand up and sprint. After getting the saddle position sussed, I choose a stem-handlebar combination that gives me a 90+ degree angle from the humerus to the torso when my hands are on the hoods. That angle just feels right.

Regarding KOPS, I'm a little bit behind, in spite of long femurs. Greg LeMond and Laurent Fignon were behind KOPS, too.

And the "sit bones" are the bottom of the pelvic girdle that's attached to the bottom of the spine.

Yesterday's ride felt really dialed in. A quick measure of the bar drop was 7 cm. Never thought I'd be comfortable with that much drop. Getting the saddle height/set-back good is finally where I need it.
Still going to try the 120 stem...need to rule this in/out.

The humerus/torso angle is measured when you're on the hoods...are you leaned over with a lot of elbow bend or more on the straighter side?

mtnclimber, I've posted a picture of the pelvic structure earlier in this thread.

Regarding KOPS; I stopped concerning myself with this. BUT, based on my saddle setback, I'm in the 1.5 - 2cm behind.

TromboneAl, shorts play a big part in comfort.