MNX1024

I always wonder about this. What does higher end component offer beside the lower weight? For example, if you one has a 105 or rival groupset, what does one get out of it by upgrading to a Ultegra, DA, or Force, Red;beside weight loss?

Is mixing two different companies' component safe and compatible? For example, I'm going to be running a Ultegra RD, 105 FD, Force Crankset, DA chain, and Rival Shifters(once I get my parts). Is that even compatible?
Or is it s a Frankensteinic blasphemy?

Also, when I was looking through Sram cranksets on ebay, I noticed that some of the listing said does not include cups and bearing. Does that mean that the bottom bracket is not included?

Dxisocos

Well other than weight savings, i would say more precision and swifter performance. The higher end, the more performance its intended for. But that doesn't mean 105s or apex aren't good. Just depends on how much you want to spend and what you are looking for.

Mixing components is okay as long as they are grouped together. For example, shifters have to be paired with same company derailleurs. I think for crank and cassette can work with mix company except for Campy? Not entirely sure about that. Chain has to match the cassette in regards to speeds.
I just put together my bike. I have sram shifters, FD RD. Crank. my cassette and chain is shimano, and it works fine.

Cups and bearings = BB. Be careful not to get the wrong crank which uses a different BB that is suited to your bike frame. lol

revchuck 

Just the rear derailleurs. The FDs from SRAM and Shimano seem to work well with either company's shifters. I've got Ultegra 6600 brifters, and when I broke my Ultegra 6600 FD, I replaced it with a Force FD ($20 cheaper) and they work fine together.

carpediemracing 

Functionally, nowadays, the parts are basically the same. When new, a derailleur will shift, pretty much irregardless of quality of build. Just like a car will go whether it's a Lexus or a Yaris, they're both Toyotas and they'll both get you from A to B.

Two main things with buying better components:
1. After a bit of use, the better components maintain their performance longer.
2. Due to increased budget in higher end products, manufacturers have more options for materials and construction method.

Aluminum is a great material and can be used in many different ways.

First, it can be skipped. It costs more than steel, so a cheap derailleur (which still shifts fine) will use more steel. It weighs more. It'll rust. You find these on department store bikes or bikes under about $300.

Second, it can be cast (if it's steel, the cheap way of making steel parts is stamping them). If you pour aluminum into a mold and let it cool off, you have a nice, lightweight, intricate shape piece of aluminum. It's also porous, brittle, and very weak. That's "cast" aluminum. A lot of inexpensive aluminum parts are made through this method. The manufacturer has to use more material because the whole casting business makes the part a bit weaker. Usually they paint the piece to make it look good.

Third, it can be machined. You get a nice, dense, strong piece of aluminum and you carve it up. CNC machining is one way of doing intricate shapes. Some minor stuff gets machined in less complicated ways, like chainring teeth. This is like carving a piece of wood, like a branch. It's strong as long as the grain runs parallel to the piece, but if the grain goes against the direction of the piece, it's not strong. CNC machined pieces tend to be left alone or anodized. Machined stuff is usually left alone, with the non-machined part kind of a contrasting color. So you'll see the shinier teeth on the black chainrings.

Fourth it can be "forged", i.e. shaped like clay. You can heat it up, softening it a bit (and making it a bit less dense) then press it into shape. The great advantage is the grain of the aluminum follows every curve of the part. That's great, makes it stronger. If we were talking about wood and trees and parts, it'd be hard to find a tree that grows like a crankarm spider. But with aluminum you can just press the aluminum block into shape. Since it's heated it's not super dense. It's like growing a 5 armed pine tree - good grain, better than cast, but not the best.

The best way to forge is "cold forging", i.e. forging without heating the part. You get super dense aluminum, tightly packed grain, and very strong parts. It's like hardwood vs pine or poplar. It's a lot stronger, allowing the manufacturer to use less material, smaller dimensions. It also costs a lot - Campy cold forged satellite bodies and high end car wheels. Shimano cold forged Saturn transmission gears. It takes a lot of pressure to smash a big block of aluminum into, say, a crank spider or derailleur piece, millions of pounds, and since it's impossible to press it at one time, there are multiple steps in pressing something like a crank arm, so many very expensive dies (molds if you will) with many expensive "presses", i.e. action steps.

So that's material.

You can do similar comparisons with pivots, springs, etc. A low end derailleur has a simple steel pin going through a hole in the derailleur parallelogram. A semi-nice one has tighter tolerances, maybe even a steel bushing. A nice derailleur has brass bushings which absorb lubricant, making the derailleur shift nicely even under bad conditions. A brass bushing also allows super tight tolerances so there's less slop, especially after 1000-2000 miles of riding. A really, really nice derailleur has replaceable pins in brass bushings, so you can take everything apart and put it back together. No one really does that, not regularly, but it allows very tight tolerances. It also costs more to make a screw and a nut instead of smashing a simple pin in place.

So... what's all this mean?

It means that for most riders, it makes sense to start at (for Shimano) 105 or so, mainly cast parts. Ultegra is nice, some parts are heat forged, etc. Dura Ace is the schnizzle because it'll feel very similar to a new group even after 5000 miles of riding.

If I were outfitting a bike with Shimano, I'd get an Ultegra bike and upgrade whatever wears out with Dura Ace. Or 105/Ultegra. Or even 105/Ultegra/DuraAce.

With Campy they trickle down some of the parts. If they introduce a part for a particular lower end group, it's usually pretty bad. So their hubs really declined - at first all their hubs had alloy axle spacers, good quality aluminum bodies (cold forged or close to it). Now their lower end hubs have horrible steel spacers, cheap axles, rough looking aluminum bodies.

However their derailleurs seem to be holding strong. Their top end shifters are virtually identical. So there are places to splurge, places to skimp.

SRAM I don't know, but all their parts look pretty good (haven't seen Apex).

Also, although I understand the basics of carbon, I don't know a lot of the differences between various parts. It's not that I know the specs but don't understand them, I just don't know the specs. I know that Campy uses similar arms in different groups but that's about it. I think there's a lack of information on purpose.

hope this helps
cdr

MNX1024

Thanks for the info guys. carpediemracing, that a very informative post, learned quite a lot from there.

Can more people confirm for me, does a shifter requires deraileurs from the same company or not?

Dxisocos and revchuck, hope I didn't offend you guys with the above question. It's just that you guys have conflicting information, so I'm just seeking further confirmation. Hope you guys don't mind.

MNX1024

Thanks for the info guys. carpediemracing, that a very informative post, learned quite a lot from there.

Can more people confirm for me, does a shifter requires deraileurs from the same company or not?

Dxisocos and revchuck, hope I didn't offend you guys with the above question. It's just that you guys have conflicting information, so I'm just seeking further confirmation. Hope you guys don't mind.

urbanknight

You'll get conflicting information because SRAM used to be fully compatible with Shimano until recently when they started varying the amount of cable pull. Front derailleurs should be fine still, but it's best to use the same brand rear derailleur and shifters. Also (not that you're doing it, but in case someone else reads this thread later), avoid using Campagnolo brakes with Shimano or SRAM levers. They will work fine, but you will probably have to deflate the tires in order to remove the wheels.

MNX1024

I'm also going to be getting new break pad, people's been recommending swiss, but they have many different type, which one should I be getting?

damnable

what material are your wheel rims made from?
What sort of weather do you mostly ride in?

2ndGen

I just went from Shimano Sora/Tiagra to Dura Ace. At first, there was a big difference.
The Dura Ace groupset didn't shift as smoothly as the Sora/Tiagra group did.
Duh! That was before I broke it in a bit (I'm a very impatient person).
Then, Xanadu!

The difference was very noticeable when you put your groupset to work.
Now that my Dura Ace group has been dialed in, it is simply flawless. It's crazy smooth and responsive.
Sometimes, it shifts so smooth that I have to look down to see if it actually shifted. It's "that" good.
Not only that, in Shimano's case, Dura Ace is better built group (higher quality materials, design, etc...).
Good read: https://www.bikesportmichigan.com/fea...-ultegra.shtml

For casual riding, an entry level group from a good manufacturer will suffice.

The weight differences for me are negligible.

2ndGen

+1k


Yes...Plus, even Shimano doesn't have the same compatibility is used to have with it's own models (7800 vs 7900 for example).

carpediemracing 

Compatibility - generally speaking you should match the rear shifter and derailleur.

Campy left shifter can be used with any front derailleur (shifter just ratchets).
Campy right 10s shifter can be used with a Shimano 9s derailleur (mount cable "wrong" on derailleur; this is how we have our tandem set up)

Campy gear cable heads are smaller. If using Campy shifters, make sure you have either Campy cables, Campy-diameter cable heads, or you file down the Shimano size cable heads. Problem is the head gets jammed in the shifter, forcing you to do something drastic like drill it out.

Campy brakes don't have a quick release lever; Shimano and SRAM do. That's the reason for not mixing up Campy brakes with other brand shifters or levers.

Brake pad descriptions will include recommended rim material and weather conditions. Make sure you get the appropriate pads, based on two factors: carbon or aluminum rim; wet or dry conditions.

halfspeed

Sometimes you'll get varing reports on whether or not certain parts are compatible. Different people have different standards for "shifts great".

urbanknight

Good point. I now avoid Dura Ace cassettes and hubs because I don't know what they are and aren't compatible with... well, that and the price.

2ndGen

I really wanted to use 7900 shifters with hidden cables. But, no can do.
I'd have to go fully 7900. But I think I'm going to try Red for my next bike before I go 7900.

When I put my 7800 group together, I went with the Ultegra SL cranks because they were stiffer (and IMO, better looking).
I went with an Ultegra 6600 cassette because they were said to last much longer than a 7800 cassette with nearly identical shifting. Frankly, outside of the shifters with their upgrades, I don't see any reason to get out of 7800.

scirocco

A lot of the difference between the different price levels is how well the shifting performs under load. You can hardly tell the difference between properly set up Tiagra and Dura Ace if you do a nice gentle, slow shift and soft-pedal while you're doing it.

Hammer a fast shift through without easing off the pedals and you'll tell the difference.

2ndGen

That's been my experience exactly.
It's when you need a group to perform that one appreciates having the better set.

FogVilleLad

Before converting to all Campy, I used Campy 10-speed brifters with a Shimano 9-speed derailleur. No Shiftmate necessary with this combo.

MNX1024

From what you guys are telling me, I'm finding out how much I don't know. Looks like I'm going to have to change my whole group than. Looks like I can't keep my derailleurs T_T.

Which component actually plays the biggest role in terms of shifting quality? I mean, I've been deciding really hard between the rival and force shifters. Finally leaning towards the rival because it's cheaper than the force by a lot and the weight difference isn't by much.

As for break pads. I'll be using alloy rims. Most likely never ride in wet condition because I don't like being out in the rain. I guess the closest I'll get to riding in a wet condition is when the snow starts melting and I'm running over puddles? Since I'll be swapping out my 105 brakes with KCNC C7, I'll be needing better pads to improve performance(self assumed here). Should I be getting the shoe or just the pads?

Rim tape or veloplugs?

Anyway, base on what you guys are telling me, my whole group should look something like this:
Rival Shifters
Force Crankset
Red FD
ForceRD
Ultegra 6700 Cassette
DA chain
Do tell me what you guys think.

By the way, I have two reasons I'm upgrading. Main reason, want to get my bike lighter . Reason number 2 is that my 105 FD with FSA Gossamer crank is horrible... They don't shift properly sometimes, more often than not, and chain drops....

2ndGen

Can't comment on your "mix" plans, but upgrading your group to go lighter will
(at best) get you about 1/2 lb. [unless you go full premium like RED].

Brake pads...SwissStop Black Standard or SwissStop GHP2 Greens.
There's about a $5. difference between the two. I'd go Green.
BTW...great choice in your new calipers.

If "all" you did was upgrade your crankset, you'd see a world of difference in shifting performance.
With Ultegra SL cranksets going for "less" than 105 cranks, that'd be one of the best ways to get much lighter weight,
much better performance, and you'll get a crankset that will actually be stiffer than the Dura Ace crankset of it's time
(7800 series). That's what I did and it did great with a Tiagra FD. Try that and see what happens.

$119. -----> https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Ultegr.../dp/B004S7I0J4

And here's a "Force VS Ult SL" thread you could read:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...tegra-SL/page2


As for a groupset, I'd piece it together when each component goes on sale.

foresthill

When talking about SRAM/Shimano 10sp, the only compatibility you need to worry about is that the manufacturer of your right shifter matches the manufacturer of your RD (not counting the funky new stuff with 7900.) Everything else is mix and match at will. You can use either a SRAM or Shimano cassette, any manufacturer's 10sp chain, crankset, and/or double FD.

That's from a compatibility perspective. There's also quality to think about. As you noticed, your current crankset is kind of lacking in that respect, as lots of people who've had Gossamers will attest.

You should certainly be able to keep your 105 FD without any problems.

revchuck 

I've also got a Gossamer crankset, and when I broke my Ultegra 6600 FD, I replaced it with a Force FD. No problem with front shifting now. To be truthful, though, I have no idea how long the Ultegra FD was broken, so the comparison might not be fair.

MNX1024

Forgot to mention, I'm using BB30. Is it possible to mix and match BB? If yes, what's compatible with the force crankset and Ultegra SL? And what would you guys recommend?

For the swiss stop break pads, which one do I get that is compatible with the KCNC C7? FlashPro or RacePro? Do I get the pads only or the holder too?

@ 2ndGen
Thanks for the headsup on the crank. By changing my whole group, I should be able to save up to almost a pound, this is from what I originally wanted to change. With my currently decide components, I think I might be able to hit 1 pound or even slightly above this. Of course this is calculated from manufacturer claimed weight.

MNX1024

Also, any good handlebars you guys would recommend that has internal cable routing?

Since I haven't ordered my KCNC C7 brakes yet. I need some opinions on which one I should be getting. I'm torn between black, silver, and gold. lol