rmr1923

When I went to the LBS and got fitted for a couple test rides, they adjusted the saddle height based on the angle of my leg with the pedals at the 6 and 12 o'clock positions, but adjusted the fore/aft position of the saddle based on whether the guy's thumb was obscured by the end of the stem where the handlebars bolt in.

i decided to keep on riding the bike i have now while shopping for a better used bike (which i've found, should be picking it up sometime this week) rather than leaving the shop with a new bike. i went home and adjusted my saddle height and fore/aft positioning based on what the guy at the LBS did, and started noticing unusual pain in the back side of my right knee (on the outside, not sure what muscle/tendon/etc this is). i did some searching online and found that a more generally accepted practice is to adjust the saddle's fore/aft positioning so a plumb line dropped from the front of the knee (with pedals at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions) would go through the center of the pedal, and then adjust my reach to the handlebars with a shorter/longer stem.

my question is, which way is correct? with my saddle in its current position, i did the plumb-line check and my knee is about 2-3" forward of the center of the pedal, so i'm assuming the saddle needs to be moved back. could this be a source of the knee pain i've been experiencing? i've never had a knee injury, nor felt this type of pain from any other exercise i've done.

thanks in advance

sdean911

Move the saddle back. Your body is telling you that something is wrong and the last thing you want to do is damage it. Assuming you are not a racer on a TT bike, the plumb line off the knee cap is a great method to get close. Minor adjustments can be made after that to fine tune your position. 2 to 3 inches is not a minor adjustment.

good luck, Greg

pbd

KOPS/knee-over-pedal-spindle can be a guideline, but many people don't follow it at all. It'll generally get you in the ballpark, but people I trust most say it's not gospel. It certainly doesn't apply to recumbent riders, and every rider/bike geometry is different, so why should it apply to everyone. It may get you in the right ballpark to set things there and see how it feels, so why not try it?

I'm no expert, but I know I had trouble with saddle fore/aft position because as I moved the saddle back, it increases the effective seat tube length. In other words, moving the saddle back ALSO has some of the same effect as moving the saddle up. When I moved the saddle back, I had to drop it a bit as well to keep the effective seat-to-bottom bracket distance the same.

The pain of having a seat too high, for me, manifested in the form of pain in the back of my right knee. I've since adjusted the seat more and added cleat wedges to my right shoe to account for some leg length discrepancy, and my knees are quite happy now. That's simply my $.02, not the word of an expert, but only an expert viewing you in person would be able to immediately spot problems. My only real solid advice would be: don't be afraid to tinker. Work on pain problems one at a time, adjust things until that pain goes away, then move onto the next think. Keep track of what you do so you can go back if you need to, but don't be afraid to change things. You'll figure out how things affect fit for you a bit better once you start tinkering with it.

rmr1923

thanks guys, i made that adjustment last night to get a better starting point (also noticed i had to lower the seat about 1/2" due to the drastic backward adjustment). i'm planning on going for a short ride today, maybe 30-45 minutes at a moderate pace and i'll see how it feels. what's odd is that i don't feel the pain while i'm riding, but start to feel it maybe an hour or two after i've gotten off the bike. when i'm done riding i'll do about 5-10 minutes of cool down at a slow pace, then walk around a bit and stretch, eat a banana, drink some more water, etc before getting in the truck and heading home.

rmr1923

on a side note, i've noticed several obviously more experienced riders, as they pass me, say something that sounds like "go get em". are they trying to encourage me, or telling me to get the F out of the way? just curious if this is common...

BayAreaUser

Although it sounds nothing alike, maybe they are saying "on your left" and simply want you to move out of the way or keep a steady line.

rmr1923

update: moved the saddle back and although the reach to the handlebars is now too long (heading to the LBS to get a shorter stem sometime this week) the knee pain isn't there. normally when i'd wake up in the morning i could hardly bend my right leg, but it feels pretty good.

something else i paid attention to was the angle of my feet throughout my pedal stroke, i found that for some reason when i was on the downstroke with my right foot, i had my toe pointed down at about a 30-ish degree angle. i'm not sure if it was the saddle or correcting my mechanics, but one of the two worked, and i found myself able to sustain a slightly higher speed than my last ride of the same length and intensity, and this despite a 10-15 mph crosswind (coming at me slightly from the front). i've also come to the conclusion that riding into a strong headwind is much more brutal than climbing a hill.

STP

Have you looked at your hip/knee/ankle alignment? You may need some shims in your shoes to prevent your knees from bowing inward or outward. Do you ever hit the top tube with your knees, particularly when you're tired? That may be the issue. Have someone look at your alignment from behind during your pedal stroke.

There are many companies that produce inserts for your shoes. I happen to use Specialized in my Shimano shoes and they come with different angle shims to produce just the right alignment.

Good luck.

rmr1923

i've never hit the top tube with my knees. my hips/knees/ankles stay pretty much straight, my knees don't bow in or out (i've seen SEVERAL riders whose legs bow out while riding, they also happen to look like they're riding with the saddle way too low). there weren't many riders out yesterday but next time i'm out i may politely ask someone if they'd mind following me for the first mile or so and see if they have any observations or suggestions. i've run into plenty friendly people out there so i'm sure i can find someone who'd be willing to help. (if there's anyone on here that rides at Terry Hershey Park in Houston, i'm out there 3-5 times a week)

another thing i'd like to do is, next time we're out of the city, have my wife follow behind me in the car and video tape me from behind and from the side for a while, just to see if i have any bad habits that need correcting. if/when i do that i'll post a video up and hopefully get some suggestions or advice. thanks again everyone for the help.

rmr1923

now that i think of it, IIRC my left leg is about 1/4" longer than my right leg, could be why i'm angling my right foot downwards. i may look into the shims and see if that helps.

Rollfast

I'd honestly lower the post a smidge at a time until I had the best compromise for both legs. I don't know anybody I could name with truly symmetrical leg proportions...it's not that common. Even your nostrils are bound to be uneven (it called a deviated septum and if you study that you'll find it a lot more troublesome than a 1/4" deviation in leg length).

Find a ruler or measuring tape and look at the distance. It's surmountable to be certain and almost negligible in the end. An INSOLE would solve the difference leaving your shoe looser to accomodate it and not squeeze the top of your foot. A shim wouldn't be necessary.

Try it once and if it works try it again but it's a cheap fix and worth the thought.

lazerzxr

IMO Neither. I adjust based on ballance which puts my knee behind the spindle and does away with any hint of knee pain shoulder pain or any other pain really. If I adjust based on KOPS then im in all kinds of trouble. Ive seen many bike fitters in the past thinking I would get more comfort or more power and I have always come away in pain even after giving it time to get used to.

The other thing I notice is that every fitter put me in a different position - so who was right? None of them. Bike fits are well over rated, with patience and a little reading you will do much better yourself. I can honestly say I am now comfortable - and I did it myself with no rules of thumb or plumb lines.

oldbobcat

If they don't say "On your left," it means they trust you to hold your line, which I take as the highest complement. And "Go get'em" is encouragement. The cool kids respect competence and fortitude, even if it's slower than they are.

BarracksSi

There's a kid at my workplace who has one leg longer than the other, too. He won't be able to find a good saddle position until he gets shims to make one shoe taller. As it is now, if the short leg has the right distance, the long one is too close; if the long leg has the right distance, the short leg has to stretch, and he gets almost exactly the same pain as you describe. It goes along with the ol' "back of the knee pain = saddle too high".

rmr1923

after reading your post i realized that i adjusted my saddle height based on my longer leg. in hindsight, not very wise. i'm going to go down on the saddle a bit and see if that helps any. i posted that after my last ride i didn't have any pain or discomfort (moved the saddle back and focused on proper foot angle while pedaling) but later in the day yesterday i was having a bit of that pain again. not as bad this time, but just a dull ache. i'm going to look into getting shims and go from there.

sqharaway

This will help: https://www.cptips.com/knee.htm