TripleCrank

Anything with Dedacciai EOM tubing. My 2004 Bianchi Virata has it combined with carbon. It's a sweet ride. They sold a lot of 'em last year, especially, after Bicycling Magazine gave it a great review.

https://www.bianchiusa.com/563.html

halfspeed

So you don't like working with silver solder. That doesn't mean it makes a bad bike. Any self respecting roadie who turned up their nose at a steel Trek was way too enamored with Italian fashion over function.

531Aussie

Ok, I've been meaning to get a life lately, so I'm trying to cut back
on my posting, but I've gotta put in my 1.43 cents:

On the custom thing, in retrospect I feel that I (along with my "peers") was sucked
into to buying custom frames by a few influencial bike shops owners
who drummed into us that: "if you race, you HAVE to have a custom frame".
Even if I said: "what about that guy on the Concorde who whooped me last week?"
And the 'experts' would say: "oh, that guy; he would go even faster on a custom frame,
would have less back trouble, and that Concorde cost him four grand!!" I really think these bike shop
blokes were just propping up their frame building buddies.

So, back in '87, at least half of the guys that were racing had local, custom frames, so they
were considered the "smart ones".

Hmmm...what's my point, I wonder?

Oh yeah.....I reckon we were mostly conned into thinking we had to have a custom frame to race, because now there's barely a custom frame to be seen.

So, to answer one of Dave's questions, we've all figured out that a custom
fit is partly BS, for most of us, at least, and there's nothing wrong with an "off the shelfer".

Ok, ok, there's many more options these days, but I'm not gunna delete my post after writing all this

MelloBoy

531aussie,
off the shelf is better...that means i don't have to wait for my frame to be constructed for 3 months lol. i get a frame, 1-2 days later, my components are all installed, and i'm already riding

melloboy

Hitchy

some blokes might even swap their beautiful Scapin steel frame for an Alu custom.

Hitchy

don d.

I knew it was only a matter of time.


It takes a real man to confess something like this, right up there with confessing he likes the movie "FRIED GREEN TOMATOES" and poetry. I agree. Most people don't need custom and do fine with off the peg.

531Aussie

You should go to Kennedy's and buy the world's cheapest Scapin with the world's biggest speed wobbles

flyingscotsman

How many people posting here remember having to replace cotter pins?

glevii

Wow, I didn't expect my BMW comment to raise so many people's ire. We're all elitist to some degree. If you're not passionate about something then there's really nothing to live for. My comment was based on those people that, and we all know 'em, that won't be seen in, on or around something, because it's not conducive to their self image. So the idea of a self respecting cyclist not seen on a particular brand is in it's purist definition "Elitist". If you don't like the title, then change your behavior.

khuon

Eh?! Did anyone tell Ritchey that? Or does the Break-Away lineup not count?

531Aussie

Man oh man

I can still remember the arguments with my dad: "you're not supposed to
SMASH them in -- you've wrecked it!!"

VintageSteve

Racers are an easy bunch to influence.
Win a race and tell them what helped you win and many will follow.
Ride a flexy Teledyne Titan, or an explosive Lambert and win a race and sales will go up. We had endorsements back then (80's) but not many for U.S. manufacturers.
There just wasn't the history behind names like Trek, Cannondale. In Italy almost all the names are family names. They raced bikes. They knew what it took and built it.
It seems that only the custom builders in America had this sense of history and knowledge. But racers couldn't afford them. I couldn't. So I bought Italian frames.
And I climbed the same on all of them. As a racer you learn your equipment and it becomes second nature.
If racers still demand something that works, their standard hasn't changed. They just don't have as much history to base that standard on. That may never change.

e-RICHIE

dave -
nice to see you here.
my reply to your post is this: craftsmanship does not always mean "hand-made" or hand-wrought", etcetera. the companies you cite have improved their wares exponentially. the 80s mtb era forced many makers to rethink manufacturing methods and those years led to many improvements in the quality of the so-called average factory produced bicycle. back in the (old) days, it was unthinkable that you could race on anything but a handmade frame, and it was ludicrous to assume that you could walk into a store a leave with a bicycle made in an asian (or from anywhere...) factory and race on it. these days, most production bicycles are more suited for the events than the counterparts offered by small "hand-makers". manufacturing and material options have raised the bar so that despite the factory-made stigma, the treks and cannondales, etcetera, of the world are making some pretty fine rides.
otoh, does this really matter? can "better" be measured? if a bicycle proves its value by its ability to be raced in the field, what else is there? perhaps folks don't care if it isn't one of a kind, or if the seat angle is off by 3 minutes, or if the finish is powder coated rather than wet paint.
it's times like these that i summon up a favorite line or two from the film Sunset Boulevard:

JOE GILLES
"You're Norma Desmond, you used to be in pictures. You used to be big."
NORMA
"I am big, it's the pictures that got small."

get it?!

e-RICHIE®™©
site: www.richardsachs.com
pics: https://photos.yahoo.com/bobbesrs
rants: https://richardsachs.blogspot.com/
zany: https://tinyurl.com/22xo7
wtf?: www.fredparrcycledesign.com/rsgallery_du.htm

lorrod

Hi Dave - Man,I LOVED your Fusos - still have mine hanging in the garage. And although I rarely ride it, I still find myself staring at it now and again.....it's just art.

Anyway, I am not sure if roadies have lowered their standards or what not. However, I think even to this day, there are bikes with "soul" and those without "soul". Obviously, your bikes had soul - that unexplainable life within the bike - you could see it just by looking at it. Schwinn, Trek, Cannondale, Giant and others clearly did not....and do not....have soul. Other bikes - like Lippy, Mountain Goat, Bob Jackson, Sachs and even 'Nagos and Bianchis back then had soul to them. Today, I think it's the same way for some bikes. For instance, some great "soul" bikes nowadays would include Sycip, Soulcraft, Richard Sachs, Steelman, Rex, Moots and obviously many others. They have a greatness, a uniqueness to them.....even giving the rider a mental edge in events/situations/rides.

It's funny looking back on my racing days in the 1980s(1980 thru 1994) - I would baby that Fuso and race it at most races. However, I look back on a Trek I had during a portion of that time and I basically trashed it. Sure, it rode okay......just didn't have soul to it.

Today, I think Treks and Cannondales ride pretty awesome - I'm amazed at the 5500 and 5900 put out by Trek. But, it's missing something. Feel? Maybe. Comfort. It's mighty comfy. Speed? No, they're quick. It's just missing....well.....soul.

In the end, I still love my Fuso....and will never get rid of it. And even though I ride a Trek now, it's just not the same.

Thylacine

I don't buy the 'soul' arguement. What is that anyway? It's meaningless, or more accurately, means different things to different people. How small do you have to be to have 'soul'? How large do you have to be before you loose it?

I think more often than not what 'custom' or 'made to measure' ( I put that in just for your Richo ) frames are ( or should be ), is more of an experience that ends in a unique bike, rather than 'I just surfed the web, went down to the LBS and bought a product' experience. Is that the essence of what people mean when they 'soul'? I dunno.

That is more of what I'm interested in anyway. THAT is why I'm sick of long winded meaningless threads such as 'steel vs titanium vs carbon vs peanut butter' et al. It's really quite irrelevant at the end of the day.

As for the arguement 'Custom is a con' mentioned by Nev and Don, well, that depends on your perspective. If you don't value individuality, the shared experience of creation, owning something unique etc., then you won't place much value on custom made anything. Seeing we're in the mood for making quotes......

"Life is too short to ride a shît bike"

My days of off-the-shelf bikes ended in 1998 and I ain't ever going back. Come on in. The water is actually, well, water.

khuon

I think the "soul" is not something that comes with the bike but rather something that the bike acquires over time after being ridden. It may not even exist in the bike itself but is something that dynamically forms between the rider and their steed. I also think that while a custom bike will guarantee the best fit, it's not the only way to get that same fit. If you're fortunate enough to be able to find an off-the-shelf fit then what's the difference? I do however think that the majority of custom builders who have earned a good reputation have done so deservedly and the quality of the build is probably of more import in that sense. Can this be replicated in a mass production facility? Possibly. Do I think custom builders are scamming? No. Like the fit issue, the quality of the build is almost more highly guaranteed from a good custom framebuilder. The higher expense goes into the greater attention to detail. Skilled labour is always going to be more costly than automated manufacturing.

systemBuilder

I think there is some frustration building out there with throwaway bike frames that last 5 years and then self destruct. This is what happened to my TREK superbike 2300 the first time I changed the saddle. i no longer own a modern super bike but if i did, it would be titanium which i believe is the only material with a lifetime that rivals a steel bicycle.

Quite frankly, though, the technology of frames has been undergoing massive advances since 1990. My 1998 TREK superbike was introduced in 1990 and obsolete by 1999. The 1970's, despite being a period with the highest bike sales in history, was a time when the market for bike parts and framesets had totally stagnated. If you looked at the top-of-the-line 1970 production bike, like a raleigh professional, and the top-of-the-line 1980 production bike, e.g. a raleigh professional, about the only difference you would find is that the rear stays moved 1" up the seat tube to join closer to the lug ears. every other damn part and technology in the 1980 bike was exactly the same as the 1970 bike. ok, maybe a raleigh team pro had a few titanium bolts and a slightly different (reynolds 753) frame tubing, but radical innovation was not welcome in that bicycle line.

In such a stagnant environment, flash and aesthetics in frame building become really important. The italians were masters of this art and their bikes flourished in the 1970's. In britian it was always "value for money" and so they would take $100 out of the cost of a bike with a hearth-brazed frame or sloppy paint.

in any event, we will have beautiful aesthetically wonderful superbikes the next time that the technology stagnates, which might be just a year or two from now, since the "lighten the bike" game has played out almost to its conclusion - 15 lbs is the lower UCI limit - and there is just not a need for other useless technologies such as aerogel-based saddles and electronic transmissions.

smoore

Sorry about that...yep it counts and by all account, it's a fine bike. Last month at Interbike they unveiled a Ti version. Tom Ritchey is a great designer and craftsman. Nice guy too.

Scoz

I'd have to be a sucka to drop my money on a De Rosa at the price they ask. Around here a De Rosa 'Team' frame with carbon fork goes for $2200 AUD. And its one very ordinary looking frame, I wont be robbed just to have a bike with a ding name.

Euro trash!

2Rodies

As for the "soul" issue I guess that has something to do with the bike as art. Like a Honda Civic a modern, functional bike will do everything that a high-end custom will do just not in the same way. It will also won't be as beautiful doing it. No bike is as beautiful as a lugged steel bike and part of that beauty comes from the knowlage that an artisen took the time to hand file the luggs and hand braze the tubes. Allthough I'm not a big fan of ti frames the new ti and carbon Merlin with the engraved luggs is one beautiful bike, art to add to the function.

Why does a Rolex cost more than a Timex? A Timex is more accurate so shouldn't it be a better and more expensive watch? The intrinsic value of an object is something that can be easily debated but harder to prove.

VintageSteve

I have seen my standards change from when I was racing. As a racer in the late 70's early 80's I rode what I had. I won my first race on a 1958 Bianchi Specialissima; I bought several frames never looking for a certain 'ride', because I didn't know what to look for.
I wanted to be like the European racers. I would pour over photos and read about their exploits. I tried to look like them. I would turn my cycle cap backwards at the base of a hill just like Lucien Van Impe would. I would try to dance on the pedals like Jose Manuel Fuente did.
Today I know the difference a nice frame makes. When I was racing that didn't matter, never thought about it, I just raced and loved it, no matter what I was on.
So going from racer to roadie has changed my standards. The experience of racing set a standard I still hold myself to. The experience of life allows me to appreciate the fine things in the world.

TheOtherGuy

I've been riding decent road bikes since the mid '70s. My first "Pro" bike was a Windsor Professional I bought used from a buddy while in high school. The ride was like night & day compared to the Royce Union I rode before the Windsor. Buying that Windsor then made me feel a bit "eliteist"; not too many high school kids then had a Campagnolo equipped, quality bike (or cared to know the difference). During the mid '70s I'd hang out at a couple of very well equipped shops that catered to racers, and drool over the build quality of CaliMasi, Colnago, Cinelli, and the Team Pro Raleighs. The shop owners took the time to show people the difference in the build quality between cheap frames, and those built as if they were jewelery. I always liked the bike jewelery. That "soul" or "mojo" as some call it, was visible in the frames that builders spent the extra time on. My Windsor rode nicely, but I could see that it was no Cinelli, the bike it was a copy of.

I'm not a racer, and never have been, but more of a "sport tourist"... and lover of bicycle jewelery to this day. Think about it; the bicycle is one of the most important machines ever devised by man. While technology keeps advancing the modern machine to function as well or better than it ever had in the past, at the end of the day, I'll still take the jewelery over modern technology. I ride some really pretty (to me anyway) lugged bikes, that ride so nicely, I just have to smile... ;^) BTW- I'm still looking for a nice Dave Moulton frame in my size...

fogrider

I think Ritchey bikes are great but the market is pretty small for his bikes, seems like there is demand for custom frames, off the shelf ti bikes or mass market alum/carbon mix. Ritchey has focused on parts...they're stems are the best on the market and they're coming out with carbon parts now.

lotek 

It's not about Elitism, It's not about "Soul"
TheOtherguy got it right. It IS about MOJO. . .
just ask e-RICHIE bout his 72' Masi duo


Marty

jcthomasjr

Have roadies lowered their standards? I think the issue here is that everyone has different standards. Bicycling to me is a sport, a hobby, and a passion. Not everyone feels the same way. I aquired my first bike over 20 years ago and put very little thought into it. I wanted a bike to ride, had very little money, and wanted to ride now (then). I bought my first decent road frame around 1990 and though I did not have a lot of money to spend, I reasearched the hell out of bikes and bought what I thought was the best bike to suit my needs and to suit my budget, It was a compromise and took me months to complete the process and though I lusted after a Serotta, Colnago, De Rosa, I could not afford a crafted American or Italian frame. I bought a Specialized Sirrus with 105 components and would pass others with much more expensive bikes on my daily rides and the centuries that I did. I would look at the expensive and immaculate frames of some of my friends and riders and would have loved to have had a well-crafted frame but I could not afford one. But, and this is a big but, I also was ignorant (though I thought I knew a lot about bikes) and did not know of everything that was available and what all my options were. For one, the internet was not at my disposal to access information with the touch of a keyboard key.

A couple of years later a friend said he wanted a new bike and in less than a week later he had bought a brand new mass produced bike for xx amount of dollars. By this time I was more educated about bikes and I mentioned that for about the same money or a little more he could have bought a custom or different but quality brand and he was very surprised. But, I don't think he would have liked the process of taking the time to pick out the bike, decide on components, and basically spend the time necessary to build up the bike (choice-wise, not actual physcially assembling).

My point is, people bicycle for different reasons. Some do it purely for the exercise. Some like the competition. Some like the bikes. Some could care less what brand they are caught dead on. Some probably think that Trek and Cannondale make great bikes, and who is to argue. Simoni and Cunego have won the Giro on a Cannondale and Armstrong the TdF on a Trek, so what is the measure of a good or great bike? Maybe they do not have the attention to detail that a Richard Sachs has, or "soul" like a previous poster mentioned, but a bike does not have to be hand assembled in a garage one at a time to be considered a bike which meets a high standard. Some people would argue that machines don't make mistakes like humans, therefor they do things better. I don't subscribe to any particular opinion, because I have seen some very well made "mass-produced", some well made "custom bikes", some well made "hand built" bikes, some crappy "mass produced" bikes, and some crappy "hand built" bikes. I like to think that I have very high standards, but I do not have a very fat wallet. I like bikes, especially road racing bikes, and I can appreciate a finely crafted, hand built frame. But, I also am an amateur musician and oil painter, so "art" is something close to my heart. I have recently purchase a bike which cost me over 4k and feel I now know something about bikes and feel like I have high standards. But that standard is mine alone and for various reasons can not be compared to someone else's standards. The cost of the bike has nothing to do with my standards as I almost bought a bike which was half as much but it turns out the bike I purchased is what I desired and it cost what is cost. And, I am hanging on to my old steel Specialized and still take it out for a spin. After riding the new bike, I have realized just how well made the Specialized is. Call me crazy but that is what I think.

Man, I feel like I could write on and on about this topic. Just my 2 cents, and I understand what is meant when the question of lowering standards is asked, but that is a difficult question to answer. I don't think there is a tangible answer. As usual, things like passion, feelings, philosophy, practicality, and a host of other things come into play on a topic like this one. Ok, I have typed more than enough. Sorry for being so verbose.