Dave Moulton

When I was in the bike business in the 1980s through the early 1990s any self respecting roadie would not be seen dead on a Trek or Cannondale, and Giant! Who were they? Most serious road bike riders had Italian imports; names like Colnago, Pogliagi, Guerechotti, and Gios. The rest rode bikes built by people like myself, and American custom builders.

Obviously companies like Trek and Cannondale have greatly improved their product, but at the same time have roadies lowered their standards and accept less craftsmanship; maybe in exchange for a more reasonable price? (In the 1980s I couldn’t have sold a tig welded frame at any price.) Or is it a case of this is all there is available now. It would be tough for anyone new to go up against the Treks and the Cannondales now without a huge capital investment.

I would like to hear from roadies out there especially the die hard ones who were around twenty years ago. What’s your input on this? I am out of the business now, so I really don’t know.

Edit 11/7/04
If you are new to this thread please take a little time to read through the posts so far. It has become a highly intelligent discussion without too much hostility and trash talk. I hope it will continue that way.

Guest

Twenty years ago, I was still piddling around on my 3 speed! But now, I got a nice DeRosa I especially went to Milan to get, and I upgraded the components too, so I have the Veloce.

I think maybe the folks who go for the mass manufactored bikes maybe just wouldn't have the money for the imports? And for some folks, they are getting the top line Treks, Cannondales and Giants, like the ones ridden by US Postal, Saeco, and Telekom. Do you really think that the bikes the people get that are similar to the team bikes are any lesser quality than the Italian bikes or custom bikes made by Americans (like Serotta)?

It may be that some of these old school companies have just upped the quality of their high end road bikes, and people are going for those bikes. Or it could be that as the demand for higher quality bikes increase, all bike builders are putting higher quality components on their cheaper bikes. When I went to Interbike, there were so many carbon frames there I almost bought another bike... ALMOST. I figured I should spend at least a year on my DeRosa before I know what my next bike will be, so I got the rollers instead! But what surprised me most is how affordable some of those carbon frame bikes were- it seems as though they are responding to the demand and putting better bikes out there on the market that more people can afford to buy.

Sorry, I'm not quite the person you were looking for, but I was riding 20 years ago... just had a 3 speed girls bike with a straw basket in front that had a flower on it, and probably was a little small for me, since my parents didn't get me a new bike until I practically looked like I was riding one of those hot wheels trykes!

Koffee

toomanybikes

Boy, Dave. Back then I would have killed for one of your bikes.

Personal opinions here.

I prefer steel bikes and I prefer lugged steel, I like the look and the feel. That said I have a steel TIG welded and I have an ALuminum (1) bike.

I think a lot of the issue with TIG welding is that this is what is available at a price less than the down payment on a new house. Custom builders can still provide lugged frames but that will have to wait till the kids are grown and out of the house I think.

Tig welded, aluminum, carbon, etc I think are better suited to mass production and I have the sense that Bicycles, like all things, have "benefitted" from consolidation of production and larger factories, etc. Anything that is suited to mass production will be what is available.

As to CArbon fibre, titanium, etc. I will not own any of those products, I like a solid, durable steel bike. If I have to lose a pound - I'll lose it.

For my money I think the market has changed, advertising has taken over to convince bikies that if it ain't carbon it ain't woth paying for. Even the "old Classic" names are now mostly carbon, or Al and carbon. For those of those that like steel, we are now shopping at domestic custom builders to get our bikes, you got out of the business too soon.

H23

I have a TIG welded steel frame (custom) as well as a lugged steel frame (production). I can't discern any differences in ride quality or durability that are due expressely to constuction methods.

What are the difference between the two (assuming each are done correctly)?

It seems to me that lugs are mostly an opportunity for the builder to make an aesthetic statement.

SAB

I believe that steel is undergoing a renessiance right now. Mostly because cycling is amazingly popular these days. Steel is available in so many variations and a steel frame can be made really light - even compared to titanium or carbon. I think custom and boutique builders are doing fairly well selling these types of "modern" steel frames. Why TIG welding rather than lug or fillet brazing? TIG welding is easy. TIG welding costs less. TIG welding takes less time. TIG welding is a perfectly reasonable way to put a joint together. No, it's not as nice as lugs or a fillet braze - but the emphasis now is on performance and weight, not on "classic great looks". Yes, you CAN have all three, but it just costs more. The more people that can afford bikes the more people will be riding and better off we'll be as cyclists. So what's wrong with a TIG welded Ti frame that weighs 3 pounds? Nothing! What about a carbon frame that's glued together using aerospace technology that's been continually improved since the mid 60's, weighs 2.5 pounds, is stiff as hell, climbs like a goat, has the latest Shimano gruppo, and costs $3000-4000? Nothing! These bikes are good! Yes, there is plenty of hype among the different brands. But you know what? This stuff is not all made up. Ti and Carbon are REALLY good materials to make a bike out of, and so is STEEL!. So the consumer has choice of what to ride. Let's say your budget is $5000. For that price you can get a custom steel frame, or a production TI or Carbon frame. All of which would be "top-of-the-line". All of which will ride great and be long-lasting. The choice is up to the rider to decide which will be best for him/her. I say if you like steel - great. If you like Ti - fantastic. If Carbon is what turns you on - excellent. Don't try to convince anyone that one material is absolutely better in all circumstances then another, because it's just not true. I say just buy a frame that 1) you can afford 2)fits you like a glove 3)does what you need it to and 4)is of high quality.

geneman

Obviously you're a Swiss national. Nicely put.

-mark

55/Rad

20 years ago, companies like Trek, Cannondale and Giant were very young in terms of breaking into the road market. Hardcore roadies didn't take them seriously but a lot of people just getting into cycling turned to them because they represented a good value. These companies grew as their reputation spread and their products got better. Oh sure, eventually they offered products designed to compete with the customs and the Italians but the real target for them was broad range in the middle - the people who had the money the spend and wanted something more than just an entry level bike. In some ways, you can thank Greg Lemond for this as his tour wins in the 80's did a lot to bring the sport to the attention of the masses here in the states.

The cycle continues today - new riders with money are getting into the sport everyday, fueled by the media circus that is Lance Armstrong et all, and a big percentage are going straight to the Treks, Giants and Cannondales for the value they represent and for all they've read and heard. It's the second and third generation riders - the guys that have been in it for a couple of years or longer and are sticking with it - who are fueling the custom market.

Interesting topic. What I would like to know is:

1. What is the market share here in the states for customs and Italians today? What was it 20/30 years ago?
2. What newer companies exist today that represent what the likes of Trek, Cannondale and Giant did 20 years ago?

55/Rad

Moonshot

The OCLV by Trek in the early 90s started a revolution. I went from the Trek 2500 (which was a sweet bike in it's own way) to a Trek 5200 in 1993. It was a 2.44 lb frame, stiff, yet comfortable. I think this bike had a lot to do with Trek gaining respect among serious roadies.

lotek 

Dave,

In a word, Yes.
now, the long version.
I don't think that Trek back in the 80's was all that bad, the Tim Issacs era produced
some very nice bikes, I'd even go so far as to say they rivaled the rides of some italian
steel (where did I lift that line from?), they just didn't have the Cache. Now they have
Carbon Fibre, Lance and they are the microsoft of the bike world.
So, where is Colnago now? mass produced bikes as far from Ernesto's early bikes
as you can get.
Pogliaghi? when Sante died so did the marque (I'd kill for a 60's pog).
Gios? Carbon Fibre and Aluminium.
I think that CF and Alu were the death knell for non boutique (you, Serotta, Sachs,
Eisentraut) builders like Colnago, Gios, Pinarello etc.
They can build bikes inexpensively (and quickly) using TIG welding machines,
preformed CF molds, and sell alot of them. Profits are up, the avg rider gets a
colnago and everyone is happy. Except us retrogrouch type, we more and more
go to the small boutique builders for lugged steel frames.
Back in the day cannondale was ok, but it was italian steel that everyone wanted.
I don't think that todays riders are any different in that they want a good riding,
well engineered bike. I think the manufactures have lowered the standard in that
quality, craftmanship, pride of work (and ownership?) has been taken out of the
equation.

just musing here, probably have more thoughts on this later.

Marty

sydney

Wonder if this is where the idea of Elitist Roadie With Stick In Butt(ERWSIB) originates?. 20 years ago I was riding a Sears 10 speed Free Spirit,and was glad to have it.I wore it out and then wore out an even worse POS. But, I probably wasn't a 'REAL' Roadie(ERWSIB) Today I have some of evertying from Trek to Cdale to Serotta and most of the Italian stuff.A good bike is one you ride alot,not one that hangs in the garage, regardless of the label on it. Remove the label and you probably couldn't tell the difference anyway.I'm probably still not a 'REAL' Roadie(ERWSIB)

ImprezaDrvr

I think the quality of the domestic/Thai bikes has increased to such a point that they're every bit as good as the Italian frames. The European Peloton demonstrates this.

VintageSteve

Twenty years ago I was watching Alexi Grewal win the gold medal up in Mission Veijo, on a Pinarello, while his teammates were riding Murrys. You couldn't go out and buy the same Murrys, they were special made by someone else because Murry couldn't build a frame worth a crap.
The only good production bike from the U.S. was the Schwinn Paramount, and for $50 you could get Campy brakes added. Otherwise racers went with small frame builders like Dave Tesch or Dave Moulton, amoung others.
I remember seeing a LeJunne bicycle hanging in the window of a small bike shop in downtown Vista CA, it was like a sign that this shop spoke serious cycling, which was not too common back then.
I went from Olmo, Follis, Bianchi, Tesch and Miyata when I was racing. I couldn't afford a Moulton but knew the experience that went into one.
I always thought the frames without lugs looked 'cheap', and were welded as Dave mentioned, or had internal lugs. That was about the time Masis were starting to be made here in Southern CA instead of Italy. I think that was the beginning of a change.
Specialized wanted Tesch to work for them, he declined; other big companies knew they had to get help from experienced builders to start producing anything worthwhile, but they also wanted too much control. They had to account for expenditures, and that probably made for compromises.
So what you have now are bikes endorsed by racers paid to ride them, designed by engineers justifying their work through computer aided design programs, and trying to get feedback from riders that don't know how to give constructive criticism that experienced builders have known for years.

CycleFreakLS

I remember riding my $400 Nishiki. Had SunTour Superbe components. Was a good bike. The other roadies had really nice frames ... most notably (that I can remember) were Masi and Medici. After college, I broke down and got a Medici Pro Strada. It was and still is a beautiful frame. But in no way does it compare to my Litespeed Ghisallo.

don d.

30 years ago I would have chosen the equivalent of a Cannondale or a Litespeed for my dedicated race bike if it was available simply because I think that they hold up better to the rigors of actual racing than most lugged steel frames, and I have gone throught the "realign your frame on Monday after riding through a pile of riders on Sunday" routine. Even then I was looking for Columbus SP to race on simply because I felt it would last longer. Even now I keep a Cannondale frame just for racing, but since I don't think I'll be racing anymore, I will probably sell it. But I know that it will hold up well in a race, and I can replace it with relatively little expense.

For that first sunny spring day, fall rides through the leaves, or Sunday morning cafe runs, perhaps I wax nostalgic for the feel of my Clement Criterium tires mounted on my Raleigh Pro or Tim Isaac, but I don't think the ride of my Colnago Ovalmaster is any less satisfying in actuality. Nor do I think it is any lower quality than a quality lugged steel ride.

Some people will always wish for the things of their youth no matter if things are better later in their lives. The saying "The Good Old Days" is a cliche, not a fact.

2Rodies

I think most cyclist have accepted the fact that mass produced bikes will "do the job". They are less expensive and come with "good enough" components. My bikes in the '80's and early '90's were all hand made Italian jobs from Ciocc and Tomassini. They were beautiful bikes with paint jobs that were works of art. They also cost a fortune and because of advances in technology a bike that cost 2/3 of what I paid for my Ciocc is probably overall a better bike. The frame may not be better but the overall bike itself is.

Today I look at my group rides (usually a minimum of 50 riders) the majority of bikes are C'dales. Now I've spoken with a couple of guys who have had their C'dales repainted only to find bondo filling holes and pits in the welds. This is unacceptable in a builder who is trying to come off as high end.

When I look at all the frames I own, Orbea Orca, LOOK Kg381, Bianchi Pista, Bob Jackson Track, and a Burley Duet tandem, there is no question that the Bob Jackson is the most beautiful and highly crafted. I'd also have to give a nod to my former bike a Serotta Atlanta, also a highly crafted beautiful steel lugged frame.

My two carbon bikes, the Orca and Kg381, they perform flawlessly, and are light and lively frames. Of the two the LOOK feels like a steel frame both are light and stiff. Both of these bikes are 3.5k to 5k bikes and I can tell the difference when I ride a bike of 1k to 1.5k.

zensuit

13 years ago I rode a 'dale, and thought it was the bomb. My Orbea makes that bike seem jittery, harsh, and not quite the prize I thought it was. I wanted a Colnago at that time, but couldn't get near the price...now...I don't care about the name, brand, or anything else, as longas the bike does what I ask it to.

Z

sydney

The Murrays were made by Serotta. And I bet Alexi could have won the gold on one of them if he had taken the stick out of his butt and tried one.

galen_52657

I got into cycling in 1985, not quite 20 years ago. After riding a used 30 lb Azuki around for a year I decided to buy a decent racing bike. A custom or high-end import was out of the question financially. I did test-ride a Trek made out of 531 Reynolds tubing that rode very nicely, but was a few hundred out of my budget. I settled on a Gitane Performance – their bottom of the line racing bike at the time - that is constructed out of Columbus Aelle tubing, which I am sure you know is made out of flat stock that is rolled, and then welded into a tube (cheep!). However, the dealer carried the complete line of Gitane bikes, which included the exact same bike that Finion won the tour on – constructed of 531P Reynolds tubing with full Record groupo and hidden cables. A sweet ride!

I think that the market was just too small for the custom builders and high-end imports. The best riders get their bikes for free, so that leaves the snobs and wanna-bees. There are just not that many people who are going to spend $3000+ on a bike. Look at this site and how many people it attracts… not that many! And a bunch of the riders on this site argue about Sora…….

The fact is that the Trek and Cannodale product is a good, solid product. For the average rider, that’s good enough.

I would say that roadie's standards are the same but that the larger US builders have gained a large share of the high-end bike market. Just like Honda did to the high end motorcycle market back in the late 60's.

Surferbruce

i would bet 8 out of 10 roadies would have no idea that their colnago is a cannondale if you just gave it a different color of paint.
i think the average bike has gotten so good that for anyone not racing seriously the top of the line bikes of today are light years beyond what's needed or perceived. it's more about show than go, that's for sure

kaisersling

who cares, as long as people are out there riding, advancing the hobby and having fun.
Its nice to see products out there that the average working stiff (like me and most of you) can afford. An example how to ruin a sport:The skiing industry has been slowly choking itself out over the years with WAY too expensive products and lift tickets (of course much of the ticket expense is due to the fact that we live in a litigious society). Snowboarding was the saving grace. They did it by getting young people involved at first by lower priced products that teens could afford..and then by marketing genius.The beauty of biking is you can by a middle-of --the-road bike for $800-1000. Spread that over the life time of the bike its only causting you maybe a hundred a year (I spend that in a day on the slopes). The greater supply of bikes out there the lower the prices should move..... not everyone cares if there are aestheticly pleasing weld points, nervex lugs or a 3oz weight difference in their frame.

Did I sound hostile enough??? I think the administrators of this forum have put some kind of mind control on all of us, so that we think WAAAAAY too much about bikes and all the minutia that comes with them.....and makes you crave it fortnightly

kaisersling

I need to proofread more....I swear I am not illiterate....i am mostlyliterate
by = buy
causting = costing (wow)

2Rodies

I would agree with the 8 out of 10 rule. I would also bet that these same riders couldn't tell the difference if I moved their saddle 5 mil up or down. The other 2 (myself included) would notice in about 10 feet. I spend so much time on my bike that it really is a part of me. I have Chourus on my LOOK and Record on my Orbea and I can tell the difference. The shifting is crisper on the Record and the brakes are better, especially the rear as the Record is dual pivot while the Chourus is not. The Orbea has a Neutron wheelset with Record based hubs while the LOOK has Chourus hubs. The Record hubs roll better.

Also I look at my bikes and the hand built lugged steel frames are works of art. My BJ track frame is just beautiful, while my Bianchi Pista is a functional practical bike frame. Go look on the "what bike do you ride" thread for the pic of one of Daves frames. Tell me that a $1000.00 Trek or C'dale is half as beautiful as that bike https://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...chmentid=15329 . For me and the other 2% sometimes it is the bike.

I also agree that the average bike is better now than the average bike was in 1989. My first road bike was a Centurian Le Mans an average bike. Today that average bike is better and builders like Trek and C'dale have helped road biking grow because of it.

VintageSteve

I agree, I don't think it was the bike that allowed Alexi to win a sprint against one of the greatest sprinters at the time, Steve Bauer, and the fact that he took off and left his teams best sprinter behind, Davis Phinney, because he knew he was going to win. So a climber won a sprint. It wasn't the bike, it was Alexi. And he won the first medal for the U.S. since my wife's grandfather won in 1912, on a bike with wooden rims.

When I ride my 1984 Dave Moulton, I notice it is different than my 1983 Pinarello. And both of those are different than the Tesch I had-that was totally hyper sensitive to the road. The Moulton rides in a way that integrates with me like none of the others I've had.

I think riders today have nothing like that to compare to.
This thread wasn't about the rider, but the bike. Still, the rider is the most important, and the only constant in any discussion about bikes.

2Rodies

You own a Tesch! I love those bikes. My buddy had a pink one (don't laugh he used spank pro's on that thing) that was just a sweet sweet ride. I always lusted after that bike, I rode it once and I've never decended on a better bike.

Dave Moulton

You can edit your own postings and correct spelling, etc. Go to edit, bottom right of your post.
I always compose my post in MS Word first, then copy and paste; that way I have the advantage of spellcheck.