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Hulley, have you considered your frame might be too big for you? Particularly the top tube length. If you don't think it is, you may just have weak core muscles.
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Ok, here is a crappy pic I just took. I'm sure the frame is not too big, I ride a small CR1 which is a 52cm frame. I can hold a plank much longer than 30 seconds.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g8.../Stevebike.jpg Sorry for the crappy pic, I only had a 10sec timer and it took me several tries to get a decent shot. Ignore my ugly mug. |
Hand pain and numbness do not have to be a result of too much weight supported and chasing it through a fitter and a bunch of internet experts is an endless chase. Sensitive pressure points don't need much pressure to pinch nerves and constrict blood flow. I, too, ride motorcycles without issue, but cycling is excruciating. Working with a sports medicine therapist to dial in the ergonomics of the controls made way more progress than the bike fitters did. That and a pair of gloves with padding in exactly the right place (four attempts).
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Originally Posted by clink83
(Post 12605207)
The bad fitting advice in this thread is out of control. You don't move your saddle to take pressure off your hands. The only time you adjust your saddle height/setback is to get the proper relationship between your knees and cranks and to get the proper leg bend, then adjust the stem reach/height to whatever is comfy. You shouldn't EVER adjust your saddle position for hand pain!
Originally Posted by fa63
(Post 12605408)
And when you do this, combined with an appropriate amount of saddle to bar drop, you more often than not end up taking pressure of the hands because of proper weight distribution / hip angle.
Originally Posted by jrobe
(Post 12605547)
Of course, you knew it wouldn't be long before the KOPS fitters with the plumb bobs would show up with their misinformed advice. I don't claim to be a professional fitter but, again, the Peter White article has worked perfect for me for years and seems very logical. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
One of his primary criteria is throwing out KOPS and using saddle fore-aft position to provide the most comfortable balance point of the body which greatly effects the amount of weight supported by the hands. It's a sure sign they don't know what their doing. They are applying standardized based formulas and measurements in a static setting for every person as if they were the same. Read articles from Steve Hogg and you'll get a better understanding of the relationship of dynamic fitting for each individual person and any structural asymmetries they have...and we all have them.
Originally Posted by clink83
(Post 12606597)
... If you have too much weight on your hands, you either have too long of a reach, bars are too low, or your weak and cant support yourself properly. If your frame is the proper size, with your saddle more or less adjusted to give you KOPS you just need to adjust the reach/drop to suit your fitness and flexability. If you have "balance" problems your frame is either too small or too big.
Instead of getting bad advice from people on the internet, the OP should revisit his fitter with the problems he's having, or find another one who will do a good job. Bike fit over the internet doesn't work. Try to do a plank, and see how long you can keep a straight spine. If you break form in >30 seconds, that very well may be your issue. I've ridden with so many people who haven't done a sit up in years and they ride all day long and fast. Core strength has nothing to do with supporting you while riding. It is helpful at the performance level. You should only bare enough weight on the bars to control the bike. Anymore and you'll fatigue much quicker. It's about phasic muscles being used for postural purpose. "...the OP should revisit his fitter with the problems he's having, or find another one who will do a good job" This cracks me up. "or find another one who will do a good job"...this kills me...OMG! I'm on the floor laughing at the ridiculousness of this statement. The OP just paid for a "PRO" fitting, now what is he suppose to get? A "Super Pro" Fitting? |
Originally Posted by Trouble
(Post 12608408)
And you're perpetuating it with even more bad advice. Core cannot keep you riding, it's balance.
You got it. When a fitter takes out a plum bob and goniometer - RUN - RUN - RUN! It's a sure sign they don't know what their doing. They are applying standardized based formulas and measurements in a static setting for every person as if they were the same. Read articles from Steve Hogg and you'll get a better understanding of the relationship of dynamic fitting for each individual person and any structural asymmetries they have...and we all have them. How ridiculous...and misinformed can one person be? (Rhetorical question) I've ridden with so many people who haven't done a sit up in years and they ride all day long and fast. Core strength has nothing to do with supporting you while riding. It is helpful at the performance level. You should only bare enough weight on the bars to control the bike. Anymore and you'll fatigue much quicker. It's about phasic muscles being used for postural purpose. "...the OP should revisit his fitter with the problems he's having, or find another one who will do a good job" This cracks me up. "or find another one who will do a good job"...this kills me...OMG! I'm on the floor laughing at the ridiculousness of this statement. The OP just paid for a "PRO" fitting, now what is he suppose to get? A "Super Pro" Fitting? This is the problem with BF, people on here are free to spew stuff that flies in the face of conventional scientific/sports meds wisdom. |
Originally Posted by Trouble
(Post 12608408)
"...the OP should revisit his fitter with the problems he's having, or find another one who will do a good job" This cracks me up. "or find another one who will do a good job"...this kills me...OMG! I'm on the floor laughing at the ridiculousness of this statement. The OP just paid for a "PRO" fitting, now what is he suppose to get? A "Super Pro" Fitting? |
Originally Posted by Hulley
(Post 12606704)
Ok, here is a crappy pic I just took. I'm sure the frame is not too big, I ride a small CR1 which is a 52cm frame. I can hold a plank much longer than 30 seconds.
There's really not anything which stands out and screams "Fix Me!" except why did you buy a 52? and why a Scott Cr1? You're at least 5' 9", maybe taller ? how tall are you? OK, smaller frames are in, and can mostly be made to fit. But Your body proportion is close to avg, but you're more towards the 'long torso' side of body type. Scott CR1 specs, 52 cm, some very important ones, 74.5 deg seat tube (very steep for a road bike), 20.9" effective TT (very short for a road bike) with a 74.5 seattube, there's just no way someone your size is gonna have a good range of adjustment for a road position. 74.5 is for a much shorter/shorter leg person than you, say someone 5'6" to 5'4". I don;t think you can get the seat BACK far enough with a std offset seatpost - forget moving forward... For you, a frame with the more middlin ST angle of 73 to (73.5 likely on a 54 cm) will give better adjustment range. And those angles would be on a 54/55 frame. How can I say this ? the diff. between a 74.5 and 73 angle ST, at, say, 74 cm seat height is about 1 INCH further forward! Which is a huge amount to compensate adjustment for. Cr1 in size 52 has a 20.9" effective TT, in fact every size in the CR1 design is on the very short side of TT - for long torso, this is hell. so now your arms/upper body is confined back towards a forward projecting seattube/seat to get this whole arrangement in better perspective, you'd prolly have to get a stem which would be another 1.5 to 2 inches longer - this can't happen since 130mm is about as long as stems mostly come. look at your arm position, especially where the elbows fall, now look at these guys, at their 'on the hood' arm positions. http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/...or_PhSptsm.jpg and http://velonews.competitor.com/wp-co...ng12809024.jpg and especially here, BMC http://blog.firstendurance.com/wp-co..._0058.JPG.jpeg you have just about every rider type position, even down to the hunched shoulders on the guy in the rear of BMC... one thing in common for all - they have their arms and their elbows projecting forward to a supported, but flexible triangle. now look again at your position - you'd need at least another 2 or more inches forward projection to get to the same place. did you try other bikes? other sizes? did you or anyone look at the CR1 geometry and make a conscious decision that this bike would be a good fit for you and your specs? I can't see how... pushing your seat forward on this bike would be the last thing I would consider... is this the cause of your hand problems? I don;t think there's one cause. I think all this stuff conspires to cause the issues to focus to your numbing hands. Small things , cumulatively make a huge difference. nuff said. my rec, go try some other bikes in 54 with a 73.5 to 73 seattube, just to get a feel for the difference. everyone is different, but I'll put money that there are way better bikes to fit you. |
Originally Posted by cyclezen
(Post 12609711)
Ok, but youprolly won't like what I'm gonna say...
There's really not anything which stands out and screams "Fix Me!" except why did you buy a 52? and why a Scott Cr1? You're at least 5' 9", maybe taller ? how tall are you? OK, smaller frames are in, and can mostly be made to fit. But Your body proportion is close to avg, but you're more towards the 'long torso' side of body type. Scott CR1 specs, 52 cm, some very important ones, 74.5 deg seat tube (very steep for a road bike), 20.9" effective TT (very short for a road bike) with a 74.5 seattube, there's just no way someone your size is gonna have a good range of adjustment for a road position. 74.5 is for a much shorter/shorter leg person than you, say someone 5'6" to 5'4". I don;t think you can get the seat BACK far enough with a std offset seatpost - forget moving forward... For you, a frame with the more middlin ST angle of 73 to (73.5 likely on a 54 cm) will give better adjustment range. And those angles would be on a 54/55 frame. How can I say this ? the diff. between a 74.5 and 73 angle ST, at, say, 74 cm seat height is about 1 INCH further forward! Which is a huge amount to compensate adjustment for. Cr1 in size 52 has a 20.9" effective TT, in fact every size in the CR1 design is on the very short side of TT - for long torso, this is hell. so now your arms/upper body is confined back towards a forward projecting seattube/seat to get this whole arrangement in better perspective, you'd prolly have to get a stem which would be another 1.5 to 2 inches longer - this can't happen since 130mm is about as long as stems mostly come. look at your arm position, especially where the elbows fall, now look at these guys, at their 'on the hood' arm positions. http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/...or_PhSptsm.jpg and http://velonews.competitor.com/wp-co...ng12809024.jpg and especially here, BMC http://blog.firstendurance.com/wp-co..._0058.JPG.jpeg you have just about every rider type position, even down to the hunched shoulders on the guy in the rear of BMC... one thing in common for all - they have their arms and their elbows projecting forward to a supported, but flexible triangle. now look again at your position - you'd need at least another 2 or more inches forward projection to get to the same place. did you try other bikes? other sizes? did you or anyone look at the CR1 geometry and make a conscious decision that this bike would be a good fit for you and your specs? I can't see how... pushing your seat forward on this bike would be the last thing I would consider... is this the cause of your hand problems? I don;t think there's one cause. I think all this stuff conspires to cause the issues to focus to your numbing hands. Small things , cumulatively make a huge difference. nuff said. my rec, go try some other bikes in 54 with a 73.5 to 73 seattube, just to get a feel for the difference. everyone is different, but I'll put money that there are way better bikes to fit you. I'm gonna take your advice and go try out some different sizes. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to comment and post links for me to check out. I take everyones comment seriously and will keep thead informed of my progress. Thanks Steve |
Originally Posted by clink83
(Post 12609203)
Just because someone is doing a "pro fit" doesn't mean they are a professional fitter.
***Put your back, arse and feet up against the wall, bend over at the waist, keeping your arse against the wall, until your back is flat...what happens? You fall forward. Now move your feet out 1 foot and do the same thing. What happens? Doh! Did you engage any core muscles? No more questions for this witness your Honor... As I mentioned, core strength has benefits at the performance level, it helps to stabilize you when you are hammering, it does have benefits in other athletic activities.....BUT - it's not what keeps you balanced on the bike. If core strength was what kept you from falling forward on the bike during rides, we all would be doing shorter rides. |
Originally Posted by cyclezen
(Post 12604978)
I've resisted commenting on the 'fitter' cause all the one's I've had contact with all have it down well and would appear qualified. but would have to agree with the majority here.
But making a 3cm+ change, just like that, smacks of 'shotgun' approach. so maybe go back to the basics yourself. first, take down the exact measurements of your current saddle position (one set by fitter) before any adjustments. note the position of the stem. saddle fore/aft - you can measure from the 'center' of the bar at the stem clamp, back to the saddle nose (if you're not changing bikes or saddles... otherwise measure back to where your sitbones hit THAT saddle) now you have the fore/aft measurement from the fitter. put a straight 'edge' across the saddle, measure from the center of the BB to the lower edge of the straight edge, along the line of the seattube/seatpost (you're not changing cranks...) that's your saddle height. changes you make should be done only ONE CHANGE AT A TIME, and should be documented for later reference, and then ride for a day or so. saddle height - I recommend starting with what you have set, if its close to the Lemond formula - (Inseam x 0.883 = Center of Bottom Bracket to top of seat) here's a table: http://www.cyclemetrics.com/Pages/Do...nseamtable.htm inseam is actual to the sitbone, not a pants leg length... before setting fore/aft to KOPS, put a level on top of straight edge which is on saddle and level the saddle. don;t worry about your 'junk' at the moment, you can adjust for that later... start with KOPS (lotza debate on that, which I won;t enter, but its a good start point...) KOPS is - drop a plumb line from the TIBIAL TUBOROSITY (NOT front of Knee Cap) and move saddle fore/aft until Tibial Tuborosity is centered over pedal spindle. what is the Tibial Tuborosity? here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberosity_of_the_tibia IMPORTANT: MAKE SURE BIKE IS LEVEL when dropping the plumb line, many stationary trainers position the bike off level- many floors, especially garages, are NOT LEVEL - gotta be level! off level will give very erroneous results by as much as 1 cm! don;t mess with stem yet, go ride. weight on hands when on bar top at bend ... if you are solidly 'pushing' a gear (not any easy spin and not 'big meat; either) when you push the gear your weight on your hands should now be on the slightly heavier side of 'comfortable', almost 'light'. In other words, the drive of your legs largely counters the down force of your torso (when you're pedaling with some effort). If it feels 'very heavy', then instead of gripping bars at palm, raise so that your finger knuckles are on top of bar. This approximates raising the bar. CAVEAT: do all this in some 'safe' place, like a large empty parking lot, where you don;t have to worry about other things. If it's still heavy, then go to the fingertips... If it's still heavy then move the saddle back 5mm - repeat... you can do the move one more time, but I normally never recommend more than 1 cm back from KOPS... without stepping back and considering what else is factoring in... if' you're good with the 'feel' at any point then try to get the bars to that point... a more 'competitive' position will be lower bar distance forward - a good start point for a classic Human proportion is (not torso short or long), not surprisingly, the Lemond frame (or maybe should be called 'Da Vinci'...) formula = .67 x inseam, this is measured from the saddle nose to the CENTER of the handlebar, at diameter center, at the stem clamp... so for example - me - 88.75 cm inseam, formula for me says 78cm saddle height -BING! long before his formula, in early 70's I settled up at 78cm. bar distance from saddle nose? formula says .... 59 cm - BING !!!, been there for 40 yrs... my bar drop has been at 9.25 cm and continues there... at KOPS for 40 yrs riding to race for about 34 of those years... still getting in plenty miles after all these years (7.5K to 9K miles/yr)... used to ride 58 & 59s, now ride 57s, but still use same numbers for setup... but this is the internet, and given that, I don't really know you. the formulas are start points, and everyone varies from there to some degree. And injuries, anomalies and riding intent makes further changes. But for performance road cycling, these are good basic start points. |
Originally Posted by Hulley
(Post 12609850)
I'm actually 5'8"...
I had a CAAD9-5 for a very brief time (a 52cm also) and I had pretty bad hand/shoulder pain so I sold it after a few weeks. The bike shop wasnt a whole lot of help in trying to size me, I rode ALOT of bikes and unfortunatly I bought the CR1 without really riding one. You can only get so much out of a test ride in a parking lot, and I chose the CR1 due to reviews and component package for the money. My next bike will be a little bigger now that I'm a little more familer with myself and bikes. I'm gonna take your advice and go try out some different sizes. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to comment and post links for me to check out. I take everyones comment seriously and will keep thead informed of my progress. Thanks Steve maybe try to ride a flatbar bike, like a hybrid for enough miles to see if that produces the hand numbness I'm NOT suggesting you get a hybrid or a flat bar, regular road is is much better with more position choices; but the flat bar bike forces a hand position which should tell you more of what you need to know. Bike road tests around the block tell you mostly nothing, other than if it's really not even close. But trying some 54s will certainly show a difference from the current CR1. Best is to know your measurements and the general recommendations for frame specs that will fit those measurements. Then get bike specs and make choices before actually shopping. Components are important, but the frame is what pulls it all together and makes the difference. You prolly already know about the competitivecyclist.com online fit calc. It's quite good and offers a great start point for considerations. And almost all new bikes (and some archives) have frame Geometry specs online. Way different from BITD, when we ran around with tape measures, measuring each frame... Doing Competitivecyclist fit calc will even give you some ideas on what you might be able to do with the current CR1. But if you haven't put much miles on the CR1, you should get a good return on it, should you sell now, height of season. Best of luck |
I'm looking at my fit chart and he lowered my saddle .5cm and moved it forward 35mm. Bar reach went from 52.5 to 49cm. Raised the bars 9mm and knee angle from 32 degrees to 34 degrees. I have a saddle to bar drop of 23mm.
Opps, correction. Saddle forward 25mm, stem was shortened 10mm. |
I wouldnt say the hand pain is chronic. I really only put about 60 miles on the CAAD. I bought it to help with my motoX but died quickly because I didnt know what I was doing and didnt know anybody else that rode bikes. I didnt even make and adjustments to the CAAD other than saddle and I still didnt know what I was doing.
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Originally Posted by Hulley
(Post 12593320)
Well I got a Pro-Fit over the weekend and am a little frustrated. We made some pretty good changes and learned something about myself. My right tibia is shorter than the left by about 5-6mm.
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Also bike fits are over rated, go to 3 different "pro" fitters and you will get 3 different fits, all completely different and all will tell you that theres is "right" I gave up paying for fits years ago and spent the money on some better tools to adjust things myself. Ive never been more comfortable on my bikes
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I got a "pro fit" last week-end and took it out on a nice 40 mile jaunt this morning and was very pleased with the changes. While the changes were small my legs had plenty more in the tank than they have had on past rides. I am satisfied so far.
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Originally Posted by lazerzxr
(Post 12610463)
The only real way to know that is from an xray looking for it, a bike fitter can only judge based on what they see. More likely you have less flexibility on one side which gives the appearance of a short tibia. If he has shimmed you to take account of it then the flexibility issue wont be solved and you'll end up where you started
Originally Posted by lazerzxr
(Post 12610519)
Also bike fits are over rated, go to 3 different "pro" fitters and you will get 3 different fits, all completely different and all will tell you that theres is "right" I gave up paying for fits years ago and spent the money on some better tools to adjust things myself. Ive never been more comfortable on my bikes
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Originally Posted by Hulley
(Post 12610275)
I wouldnt say the hand pain is chronic. I really only put about 60 miles on the CAAD. I bought it to help with my motoX ...
I don;t ride MotoX, but I do some light offroad on my Duallie KLR, some of which is pretty gnarly/rocky for a bigger bike. On a Moto, your weight is not on your hands like on a road cycle. You may have done some nerve damage, doing MotoX and not realized it, because the bangin into the hands is off and on while doin moto. It may now show itself more because of the relative constant weight on the hands, while road cycling... same, same for the shoulder. I know, after 3 or 4 hrs of bangin off-road on the KLR, my arms are toast... and I'm not really huckin anything on that 400lbs of loaded machina like guyz on real MX motos do... scary enough just droppin some small (read tiny :o) rocks and ledge. ... just a thought and perspective |
A little update. I just got back from riding 21miles and feel pretty good other than running out of water at the 14mile mark. I started to feel the tingly fingers around 14-15 miles but nothing that moving my hands around or a good shake didnt take care of. The tingling didnt go away it just never got worse or to the point that I wanted to get off the bike. This was after moving my saddle back 25mm. I know abit too much at first but I was desperate. So its a move in the right direction. The funny thing is that was where my saddle was to begin with, the only difference now is a shorter stem (10mm), different saddle, cleat position and a 3mm shim under my right shoe. I still feel like I have a good bit of weight on my hands but nothing that would really ruib the ride. I'm willing to bet I can get more comfortable with a possibly larger frame or a farther saddle position. I'm gonna keep it where it is now a do a few more longer rides and get my body acclimated to the change. I'm happy! I may go for another ride later this evening!
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Originally Posted by cyclezen
(Post 12610623)
I know, after 3 or 4 hrs of bangin off-road on the KLR, my arms are toast... and I'm not really huckin anything on that 400lbs of loaded machina like guyz on real MX motos do... scary enough just droppin some small (read tiny :o) rocks and ledge.
... just a thought and perspective http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g8...9/100_0675.jpg |
Not going to get into the hole fit thing here but I will say I think that 52 is to small for you, I'm between 5'7"-5'8" and while that really means nothing as far as fit for you goes when I got on a 52 at Helen's Bike they all said to small as soon as they saw me on it.
Good luck sorting it all out. |
Originally Posted by JTGraphics
(Post 12612731)
Not going to get into the hole fit thing here but I will say I think that 52 is to small for you, I'm between 5'7"-5'8" and while that really means nothing as far as fit for you goes when I got on a 52 at Helen's Bike they all said to small as soon as they saw me on it.
Good luck sorting it all out. I don't want to inject myelf into the saddle position argument but from personal experience, I've moved my saddle back by over a cm over the last 4 months and I've notice much less pressure on my hands. |
Yeah, I think a larger frame is in order. Maybe I'll go ahead and use this as an excuse to get the Lynskey! :)
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Well, I ordered a Scott Addict in a 54cm this afternoon. My LBS is giving me a great trade in and a deal on the Addict so I cant really pass this up. I want a Lynskey but I just dont have $3k for a frameset right now. I should have the bike in about 2 weeks. The Addict was what I wanted in the first place so I'm happy for now!
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I didn't go back through all the thread, but do you strap your gloves on real tight? I have found I prefer gloves without pads, and leave them un-strapped. I can't stand the feeling of a tight glove, and when strapped I tend to get a little tingle in my hands as well.
Just a thought. |
Originally Posted by rankin116
(Post 12624269)
I didn't go back through all the thread, but do you strap your gloves on real tight? I have found I prefer gloves without pads, and leave them un-strapped. I can't stand the feeling of a tight glove, and when strapped I tend to get a little tingle in my hands as well.
Just a thought. |
Originally Posted by Hulley
(Post 12623231)
Well, I ordered a Scott Addict in a 54cm this afternoon. My LBS is giving me a great trade in and a deal on the Addict so I cant really pass this up. I want a Lynskey but I just dont have $3k for a frameset right now. I should have the bike in about 2 weeks. The Addict was what I wanted in the first place so I'm happy for now!
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Originally Posted by KoYak
(Post 12624888)
Congrats! I'm looking to reward myself with a Scott Addict for when I lose 60 lbs. 30 more lbs to go!
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Originally Posted by Nick Bain
(Post 12593655)
i really wish more bikes came with more steerer from the factory.
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Recently sold the KTM 450 and riding a lot more mtb. I tried to ride slower too, but I would rather not ride. Besides, the exercise is much more fun...and cheaper.
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