so I guess this means Georgie doped too huh.....

so who thinks Lance will dispute the allegations till the bitter end? or will he come clean?

I agree it's a shame bc 99% of the world doesn't understand pro cycling, and in their eyes he would be labeled a fraud. From Lance's perspective, it's much greater than him personally. if it were just him, as some washed up, overweight former pro racer that has let himself go and doesn't really ride much, I think he'd admit it along with the others. but he's not fighting this for himself. he's doing it for Livestrong. (ok sure his ego is alive and well.) but he's got an entire army set in motion against the investigation, fighting for their own livelihoods based on their association. without any positive test results, the rest is hearsay and IMO I don't think it will hold up in court. no hard evidence, no smoking gun, it won't hold up.

Bicycling/Rodale Publishing Conglomerate is using it just a wee bit much to sell ads in their skimpy, wheezy mag. RBA, now that's a magazine packed with real content, but I digress.....

..... and I really dont care. I experimented with pot once, but I didn't inhale :D

I think in alot of ways the warriors that a society chooses to represent it reflect alot about that society. I think the fact that there are so many people who don't care that he's a fraud is pretty telling. I would like to hope my generation is moving away from that.

Why? Yeah, hate the man but at least let what good came out of it live on. I have one that I've worn for 4 years and it's never been off my body. If it was ever finally 100% no doubt about it proven he doped would it really change anything? nope. We'd all get pissed and I told you so and blah blah blah and in 6 months we'd be saying someone else doped. Some other post somewhere said lifetime bans are what this sport needs. I agree. Find someone doping and put em out. No second chances. It's the only way you'll limit the PED usage. Take dinner off the table and people think twice. I don't want to think George doped, I like the guy more than Lance. God forbid they say VdV dopes. That'll be it for me.

Unfortunately it all has to be proven. 100 people saying he doped doesn't prove it, just makes it highly plausible. Somewhere, sometime, somehow the truth will finally come out.

On a side note - since the rapture is happening tomorrow maybe Lance will finally fess up. Moving on.

I just read that George denied making those comments...

Sorry; my comment was probably inappropriate, and you correctly called me out on it. Just my lame attempt at humor; my apologies.

I actually don't (and won't) hate Lance or Livestrong, regardless of what goes down.

It appears that he will. Using Marion Jones' case as an example, she too never tested positive. Maintained that she was clean for years. Even lied to two grand juries. The only reason she went to prison and forfeited her winnings was that she came clean and admitted to PED use. Methinks the lesson in this for Lance may very well be never admit to anything.

I *thought* I read that, but what I actually read (in the linked article as well as on cyclingnews) was George denying (via Twitter) talking to 60 Minutes. He didn't deny making the comments to the Grand Jury.

Do you have another source?

I read that he denied speaking to 60 minutes/ CBS News.

Edit: 'Nother beat me to it.

It's ok. I'm just waiting for my PED's to kick in and I guess I couldn't tell you were joking. No harm No foul right? It is sad that LiveStrong will somehow take a beating over this. Shame too. Main reason I don't give to Susan G. or any other cancer specific org's is because LiveStrong is a cancer encompassing group. And if any amount of money would help keep another daughter from going through what my wife did with her father is fine buy me. If I had it to give I would. I'll support it no matter what the outcome here, if any.

And that is the crux of it. For all the doping, for all the corruption, the lies, the racketeering, good came out of it, notwithstanding the problems with livestrong. Lance now needs to do the right thing, to salvage that good. Doing the right thing means telling the truth, even if it means doing time. Lance and his PR team underestimate how much people will understand.

[On the other hand, the UCI, Verbruggen, McQuaid et al, need to be nailed to the wall by their balls**.

seriously? lots of ppl care. what we're talking about is viewing the "facts" for lack of a better word in their proper context. have you read Rough Ride by Paul Kimmage? based on that book and other comments from pro riders I've read here and there, I don't think Lance was creating an unlevel playing field for himself. battling cancer, being scoured, literally, from the inside with all the heavy chemo, did wonders for his power to weight ratio not to mention mental resolve and ability to endure extreme suffering. I think that alone is what enabled him to win the TDF not once, but 7x.

consider this: what other sport, besides Olympic sports, uses WADA to test its atheletes? it's really amusing how it happens that the one sport that holds itself to higher standards is viewed as dirty, when other sports, like pro football, are seen as cleaner bc they are about even bigger business and pay more to cover it up. The NFL is terrified of being held to WADA standards, look it up. heck, look at college basketball players today vs 20 years ago. are they body builders or basketball players? and what are they tested for? the sad thing for me as an American is to see my tax dollars being spent on this on-going he said she said investigation. it's not black and white out there, just many shades of grey. even our heroes have to make compromises. I'm ready to put the past behind and focus on accurate testing methods to prevent dopers from gaining an advantage in any competitive cycling event, and promote cycling as the cleanest pro sport with the highest testing stds. otherwise where do you stop? how far back do you go? we're getting dangerously close to doing more harm to the sport than good.

Agreed. Sadly it reminds me all too much of LA's tweets of "20yrs cycling, 500 tests, zero positives". Saying they never caught you isn't the same as saying you're innocent.

Yeah, lots of these pro cyclists are pretty good with wording that sounds like a denial but isn't really. In the Yahoo! article there's this:
That all may be true, but it's not the same as saying, "I have never used PEDs".

So lets just continue with the status quo so any young rider who wants to succeed has no choice but to play the game because fixing the actual problem would hurt too much.

Agreed - I feel bad for George out of all this, if this all turns out to be true. He'll be the real fallen hero here IMO if the allegations of himself using EPO with Lance were on the record. Very sad day for that reason. Also the way this precedes any and all news about the AToC in the mass media is also sad. Hardly surprising, but still sad.

Correct, and nothing will really be further from the truth. But that will be the general public perception. The whole thing sucks very hard. A sleeping dog that should have been left alone to be sure. No good will really come out of this. I'd like to think this might help clean up pro cycling, but it won't. All it will do is destroy a national sports hero and a productive charity that raises lots of money and inspires lots of cancer patients and their families.

Your tax dollars @ work. Friggin Fed idiots.

Also I'm sorry but I think you're selling cancer sufferers a bit short if you think they somehow "need" a hero in Lance even if he's a liar and cheat. All the "good" he's done is a little cloudy in my book given the travel budget of Livestrong and the other shadiness of the difference between livestrong.com and livestrong.org.

So were the 190+ guys he beat each year repeatedly 7 years straight in France. How many different doping cyclists did he beat in that race over the years? 500+? What's your point?

That's a rhetorical question of course, I realize that you don't have one.

As for anyone who questions Livestrong, this is a guy who could have taken his millions and did none of that. If any one of us contributes 1/1000000 as much to the world as that we'd be doing well.

I am desensitized by any new relevations, this is no different than the NFL.

I can understand that, and the livestrong thing is certainly very dodgy; On the other hand there is some good coming out of livestrong, however small. People will understand the argument that Lance doped because everyone else did (an argument that is that is largely true). But he should tell the truth now, it is the right thing to do, if only for all those who have had the emotional support from Livestrong etc.

He did have the best doctors though since he never got caught, and all of his competitors like Ullrich, Basso, and Hamilton got caught. There's a chance that he had better drugs under the care of Ferrari.

as if there aren't "real" problems our Fed. government could be working on that might actually make a difference.

That alone enabled him to win the TDF 7 times? So, not the drugs?