PrivateAddress

Planning to register for my first race. I am 43 years old. This particular race has separate Senior cat 4/5 and Master's cat 4/5. My USAC account/membership let's me register for either one. I know that when all Master's categories are combined (1-4) it is much better to register for the "regular" (senior) 4/5 than for the Master's because the latter will include guys who have been racing for years.

But what about if there is a separate Master's 4/5 in addition to the regular 4/5 -- is it still the case that the Master's race is likely to be stronger and faster?

Thanks in advance.

urbanknight

If the schedule works out, do both. Otherwise, it depends on who's entering.

merlinextraligh

there likely won't be a huge difference. But at least if race the Masters 4/5 most of your competitors will have a job to go to Monday morning, and a little more life experience, so it tends to be a little less sketchy.

carpediemracing 

Unless the Cat 5 fields were filling out, there's no real reason to break up the 5s into Masters and not. I'm guessing the 5s were getting filled. Most 4-5 Masters will be a bit more relaxed about the whole racing thing.

A Masters rider will have more "life" experience, like they actually understand some driving (a car) dynamics. I watched a Junior racer do some weird stuff on the bike then realized, oh, right, he doesn't drive, he probably doesn't understand. He rode more like a cat trying to navigate some traffic rather than a driver trying to navigate traffic. He only saw gaps, not the potential for gaps to close.

An open Masters (1-4) is not necessarily "better", and in fact I avoid them like the plague. It's really a Cat 1-2 race which has extremely strong, extremely smart racers. A regular Cat 1-2 race has more of the former, less of the latter, and for a local race, it can actually make the race easier (get a dumb strong racer to pull a lot and it's easier overall). I'm not that strong and my guile doesn't work when the strong, smart Masters drill it so hard that to sit in I have to do 350-400w. They understand that 5 or 10 minutes of this will burn off those racers similar to me, and they do it selectively.

I'd much rather race a regular Senior race (p123) than a Masters 1234 race, and I say this now as a 2 and before when I raced for decades as a 3.

If it's a M35+ or M30+ it'll be similar to a Senior race. If it's M40 it'll be slightly different, probably a bit slower.

At the 4-5 level I'd do the larger field, if there's a substantial difference in field size. If the field is under 20 racers then you cannot make one mistake tactically (gearing, making an effort, etc) and expect to recover enough to stay in the race. If there are 30 or more racers then you can make the standard mistakes of going too hard or leaving a gap or whatever and there will be some margin of error there so you can recover while other racers pass you.

Next, if both fields are 30 or so racers, I'd go with the Masters (more mellow, understand working on Monday, etc).

I'd go for your Cat 4 upgrade as soon as possible. In the meantime work on group riding skills, and, if possible, do drills like touching elbows/arms/shoulders/hips (this can be done on pavement), touching wheels (needs to be done at low speeds on grass, in full length heavy coverage clothing since I guarantee you'll go down at least a few times, the first time should be on purpose to see what happens when you touch your front wheel to someone else's rear wheel), some other skills (bunny hop, track stands, riding a straight line, riding a straight line while one hand is off the bars, riding a straight line while looking back, etc etc).

Then get your upgrade to 3. The racing isn't that much harder as a 3 but, for the most part, you'll be able to get into any race you want, Masters or Cat 3 (so Cat 3-4, p123, etc). What this does is it opens your schedule so you can race with friends, early or late in the day, etc.

Honestly I don't think the actual racing is that much harder in the 2s either. It's winning or placing that is extremely difficult. But I know many Cat 4s and 5s who are significantly stronger than me.

I figure average speeds are about n mph for Cat 5s, n+1 for 4s, n+2 for 3s, and n+3 for 2s. If it's a real P12 race (that United Health or some other huge team does) then it's more like n+5, and that's a world different from n+3. N, in my experience, in crits, is usually 23 to 24 mph. Add +1 for a "hard" race, so a hard Cat 3 race would be n+3.

A regular Masters 30/35/40+ 1234 race is equal to a 2s race, so n+3. 45+ I think it's n+2, so equal to a 3s race. If it's 50 or 55+, then n+1 or n+2, give or take.

Mose

Thanks, cdr, for taking the time to post that. Info like this is incredibly beneficial to new racers. I found your average speed to be right on the money... I did a flat cat 5 crit, half hour I think, and we did about 23 mph. Pretty wide turns. I found it surprisingly easy to stay in, even soft pedaling for some of the lap when I was sheltered in the middle of the pack. Then I did a 4/5 with a small field (mostly 4s) couple rises and lots of turns. The average speed was about the same but I got shelled and yanked halfway through. Just couldn't do the accelerations up the hill or off the corners.

PrivateAddress

Thank you so much. Some follow-up questions inserted below:

As far as I know, it was listed from the very beginning as having separate races (i.e., actual different starting times) for "Men's 4/5" (field min/max 10/75), "Masters 40+ cat 4/5" (also 10/75), and on top of that "Masters 50+" (10/75) and "Masters 30+ cat 1/2/3" (10/100). Seems like a lot of breaking up and I worry about registering and then on the day itself finding out that there are only 10 starters (remember it will be my first race). The race is:
https://krcycling.files.wordpress.com...ation-docx.pdf

As mentioned above, the cat 1/2/3 Masters 30+ have their own separate race (and so do the open cat Masters 50+) but not the cat 4/5 Masters 30+ (the latter will be in the regular/senior cat 4/5). It's complicated with this many separate races....

People ask the organizers how many are registered? How long in advance?

Can you please clarify if this and the above sentence mentioning that M40+ would be a bit slower than a senior race do not contradict the following (just trying to understand everything from your detailed and helpful explanation!):

Maybe it is just confusing to me because in my case I have to chose between regular 4/5 and Masters 4/5 whereas your example refers to an open Masters.[/QUOTE]

GirlAnachronism

If you're registering through bikereg there's a tab called 'confirmed riders' that you can click on to see how many are registered.

ericm979

Do the masters 40+ 4/5 race. It'll be mellower and the riders will be more experienced and less likely to do something dumb.

PrivateAddress

From all the responses so far it seems that the Masters 40+ 4/5 may be the best option for me. Unfortunately, the event does not seem to be on bikereg.com. When registering through the usacycling web site, there is no way to see the number of registered riders, right? Are these the only options for registering? Should there be say 30 or 40 people in the regular cat 4/5 and only 10 in the Masters 40+ 4/5, then -- despite all the good advice above -- the regular one would still seem to be the better choice I think.

ericm979

Here in NorCal the lower category masters fields are the first to fill up.

merlinextraligh

The fact that they're running two 4/5 races tends to indicate that they expect pretty big fields in each.

You're limited to fields of 75 with Cat 5's, and the reason for the 2 races is that they expect in excess of 75 riders. So very good chance you'll have a t least 40, likely more in both fields.

mazdatech10

what planet are you from every race i have done this yr. there has been a major crash with 4 or more and one race it was 9 so us old guys crash just like the young guys. if he is racing for the first time doesn't he have to do straight cat 5 then he can do 45+ 4/5 race after the cat 5 , his lic should say cat 5

PrivateAddress

It will indeed be my first race. But with a riding age of 43 and a cat 5 license, registration through the usacycling web site lists for this particular event in the state of WA (link to the event already given above) both the regular cat 4/5 race and the Masters 40+ cat 4/5 race as "Qualified races" (and I can add either one to my cart, pay, and check out). Is it not supposed to be that way?

mazdatech10

if you can do the 40+ 4/5 race, not the 4/5 as it can be 20yr olds

hhnngg1

Masters are definitely as crashworthy as the nonmasters in CA

PrivateAddress

I just figured out (I'm learning!) that when registering through the usacycling web site there is also a link "view registrations." When clicking on it, however, it show only 3 individuals signed up for the regular cat 4/5 and nothing for the Masters cat 4/5. Given that both fields are up to 75 riders, I assume that either this info is incomplete or everybody usually registers closely before the race? (now about 3 weeks away)